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embrace yourself because you're about to

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dive into another free first hour

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episode of the higher side chats and we

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just want to let you know that whether

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you're looking for a companion through

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activities or trying to ward off the

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internal scream to all those sad

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smothered Souls around the office THC is

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here and you should know that every

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become a plus member and treat yourself

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action-packed and commercial for you

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which means you'll unfortunately never

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[Music]

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the planets puppet-masters on my shirt

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we have a plan it's clearly maybe

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something there beyond the realm of man

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until we've thoroughly tested every last

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clothes just did you find the boy you

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think you know much you really do

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we know the lying to us just don't know

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what to green where would we be without

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okay car wooden company

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all right higher side chatters brace

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yourself for an off the radar ride today

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as we penetrate the Snickers stigmas and

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social awkwardness around a topic that I

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think you'll find is much more

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significant than you thought it was and

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I'm sure many of us would admit that

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culture can find itself in weird places

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and human beings have an uncanny

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tendency to blindly go with the herd

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that makes me think those advocates for

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origin theories that involve engineering

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us for obedience might be on to

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something because there's no other way I

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can rationalize a long tradition of

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cutting off parts of baby penises all

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the way into 2018 without ever so much

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as a real conversation about it who

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decided this was okay how did it get to

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be the norm and why like many important

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topics we consider here do so many

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people spout off a few regurgitated

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bullet points in support of it

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suspiciously as if it was implanted

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right in their brains well a vigorous

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and lengthy golfclap is an order for

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today's guest filmmaker Brendan Murata

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for tackling this uncomfortable

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conversation head-on with his recently

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released and now award-winning film

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American circumcision which breaks down

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the arguments from both sides of the

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situation examines the history and

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explains the gory details and data we

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should all be fully aware of before we

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make up our minds about it like my

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teacher said in sex ed class so long ago

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if you can't talk about it you probably

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shouldn't be doing it so here to talk

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about everything you ever wanted to know

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about circumcision and probably more

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running my man welcome to the higher

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side thank you that was a great

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introduction thanks I like to have fun

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with those intros but I am really

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psyched and thankful that you're here

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when I heard about this film I thought

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you know that's interesting but I'm not

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sure it can carry a full episode of this

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show because how much is there to really

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know and well when I watched it I was

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definitely impressed learned way more

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than I expected to and I actually got

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emotional about it despite my heart

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being two sizes too small and maybe we

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should ease into this one with that

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classic cliche question of how did you

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find yourself making a film on the

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subject of

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so I think like most Americans it was

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not a topic I'd thought about a lot

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before it was something that I just sort

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of thought well there's nothing I can do

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about that now so why think about it it

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seems a little uncomfortable it seems a

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little weird and besides what is there

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really to know about this issue and at

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the time I was in Los Angeles I was

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working as a filmmaker and I was sort of

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focused on escapist things like horror

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films and sci-fi and you know stuff I

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got paid for essentially and at the same

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time I started going through a period in

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my life where I was looking at a lot of

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things that happened to me in early

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childhood that might have affected me

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later on and I was reading a lot of the

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you know psychology stuff about how

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early life events impact you later and I

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would run across this in those readings

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and I thought well you know there's

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nothing I can do about that now it made

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me uncomfortable because I think like a

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lot of people I want to feel like I'm in

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control of my life and I can change you

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know my beliefs and my patterns and all

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of these other things but that was

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something I couldn't really change so I

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just kind of pushed it out of mind and

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then later I have a meditation practice

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and the meditation that I practice is

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just being present with whatever is

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there it's nothing mystical not trying

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to achieve any strange states of mind

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it's just whatever comes up in my

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consciousness I'd be present with it and

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during a meditation I had the word

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circumcision come into my mind and I had

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this really cold sensation in the body

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it was this very sort of uncomfortable

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feeling and it felt like all my energy

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drained down to my belt and it happened

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a couple times during this meditation I

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thought that's really weird like some

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part of my consciousness clearly wants

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me to look at this so I'm gonna pay

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attention to this and actually do some

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research and one of the first things I

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found is something that we cover in the

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documentary something called foreskin

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restoration which is where men take the

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remaining skin that they have and slowly

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stretch it over time and this doesn't

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get back all the nerve endings of the

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foreskin but it does get back some of

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the form and function and creates a

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covering of that part of the body again

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and so I thought that's really weird but

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all my life I've been told there's

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nothing you can do about this and

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clearly there's something you can do

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about this so what else have I been told

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that isn't true and I started having one

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of my interview subjects called the

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obsessive Epiphany which is the moment

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when you realize there's more to an

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issue than what your culture has told

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you and you start researching everything

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about it you know reading every book

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searching every article watching every

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film listening to every podcast and I

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felt like the things that I was learning

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were really important and things that

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the wider culture wasn't aware of and

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that I needed to communicate in some way

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and like I said my craft is as a

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filmmaker it's what I do professionally

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it's what I love doing it's what I've

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wanted to do since I was 14

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so films seem like the natural place to

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express that and that's what led to the

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documentary and you know within a month

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of learning all of this I was traveling

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up and down the coast interviewing every

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person whose book I'd read and whose

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website I'd seen and whose work I was

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aware of so that's what led to the film

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and I think that a lot of people are

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afraid to look at this issue because

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they have this idea that if they look at

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the issue of circumcision it's just

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gonna make them feel bad in some way and

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there's gonna be nothing they can do

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about it and what I found is very much

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the opposite that there's a lot you can

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do about it if you're willing to look at

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some of the difficult questions this

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issue raises so that's what the film

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explores and what we get into in the

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movie well well said and I think that is

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really the heart of the issue I think

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another thing is that people can be

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self-centered and to admit that there's

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something wrong with this issue might

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mean to admit that something bad

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happened to them or they might think

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well it happened to me I'm here you know

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I'm not gonna fight too hard to end this

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practice cuz it's too late for me those

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kind of thoughts but I do think the

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trauma issue is kind of interesting

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because one of your subjects in the

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film's mentions that people can have

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flashbacks or reoccurring nightmares

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about being laid out on a medical table

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with figures looking down on them and

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some type of sexual experimentation

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happening that sounds like some other

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things that we cover on this show from

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time to time and I thought the

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correlation was interesting who knows

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where these things

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they come from maybe it can come from

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something like that it certainly seems

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traumatic and I guess in terms of

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framing up the topic what are some facts

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and statistics about circumcision you

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could tell us that might grease the

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wheels a bit and give us a general lay

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of the land I think one of the most

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shocking things that I learned in

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research for the documentary was that up

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until the late 1980s doctors believed

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that infants did not feel pain and would

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do the procedure without any anesthesia

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or pain relief and you can imagine a

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newborn infant being actually strapped

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them down to a four-point restraint

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called a circumstantially like a tiny

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rack for a baby and they will do this

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procedure on the child without any pain

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relief so the child is screaming

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throughout it and I think a lot of

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people think that it's done you know

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it's just a little snip as the culture

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likes to say when in reality they use a

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clamp and it's an involved 15 minute

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procedure and the foreskin is fused to

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the head of the glans it's very gruesome

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and shocking to look at and many of the

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activists I interviewed told me that

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just seeing the procedure for the first

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time was what made them want to become

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an activist was what made them feel like

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we have to change this part of the

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challenge of this issue is that like you

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said it hits on a lot of identity level

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things for people you know people will

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say about other procedures that they

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have like they'll say I had you know

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shoulder surgery or I had my tonsils out

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but when it comes to circumcision they

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say I am circumcised it's an identity

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thing it's part of who they are the same

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way you might say that you're white or

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black or gay and in reality circumcision

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is just another thing that happened to

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you and it isn't necessarily an identity

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level thing but we make it into that

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because it deals with the body because

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it deals with sexuality and genitals and

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so I think if people were to shift their

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frame a little bit in that way and to

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look at it as just as something that

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happened to them rather than a part of

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who they are then they would have a

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00:10:41,079 --> 00:10:38,809
little more flexibility in thinking

274
00:10:42,699 --> 00:10:41,089
about the issue of okay well

275
00:10:44,949 --> 00:10:42,709
this is something that happened to me

276
00:10:47,799 --> 00:10:44,959
yes but is it really aligned with my

277
00:10:49,629 --> 00:10:47,809
values I think a lot of people too

278
00:10:50,799 --> 00:10:49,639
regularly you know really accept the

279
00:10:52,900 --> 00:10:50,809
idea that you have the right to make

280
00:10:54,879 --> 00:10:52,910
your own choices about your sexuality in

281
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:54,889
your body and the argument that

282
00:10:59,439 --> 00:10:57,050
activists against circumcision are

283
00:11:01,239 --> 00:10:59,449
making is that human beings have the

284
00:11:03,819 --> 00:11:01,249
right to make their own decisions about

285
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:03,829
their body and that to cut off part of

286
00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:05,689
someone's body without their consent is

287
00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:07,850
a violation of their basic human rights

288
00:11:12,249 --> 00:11:10,730
and when I framed its people that way

289
00:11:15,549 --> 00:11:12,259
you know when I talk to people they

290
00:11:17,379 --> 00:11:15,559
don't and so we've had a culture that

291
00:11:20,530 --> 00:11:17,389
just through inertia has framed this as

292
00:11:22,150 --> 00:11:20,540
a parental choice as if parents have the

293
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:22,160
right to decide what body parts their

294
00:11:27,850 --> 00:11:25,610
children keep as opposed to an issue of

295
00:11:30,610 --> 00:11:27,860
human autonomy and human rights and

296
00:11:33,940 --> 00:11:30,620
sexual freedom

297
00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:33,950
now you mentioned the trauma that

298
00:11:37,150 --> 00:11:35,510
sometimes a little difficult to talk

299
00:11:39,550 --> 00:11:37,160
about because you can't really do a

300
00:11:41,350 --> 00:11:39,560
double-blind study where one group of

301
00:11:43,330 --> 00:11:41,360
people get circumcised and another group

302
00:11:46,180 --> 00:11:43,340
people don't and then they have exactly

303
00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:46,190
the same life experiences and background

304
00:11:50,020 --> 00:11:48,410
and all the other things in their life

305
00:11:53,020 --> 00:11:50,030
it's really hard to do a study like that

306
00:11:55,270 --> 00:11:53,030
and even on types of trauma that we

307
00:11:57,490 --> 00:11:55,280
accept culturally as having an impact

308
00:12:00,280 --> 00:11:57,500
like someone experiencing sexual abuse

309
00:12:02,260 --> 00:12:00,290
or rape as an adult it's even hard there

310
00:12:03,940 --> 00:12:02,270
to prove correlation yeah I think we all

311
00:12:05,890 --> 00:12:03,950
sort of intuitively understand that

312
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,900
someone who experiences those things

313
00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:08,480
will have trauma and that trauma might

314
00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:11,600
manifest itself in strange ways in ways

315
00:12:16,180 --> 00:12:13,970
that are difficult for that person to

316
00:12:18,220 --> 00:12:16,190
deal with now when it comes to

317
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:18,230
circumcision there are some studies on

318
00:12:22,690 --> 00:12:20,810
the lasting impact of that pain there

319
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:22,700
was a study that we cover in the film

320
00:12:28,510 --> 00:12:25,130
the anandhan hickey pain studies in the

321
00:12:30,460 --> 00:12:28,520
tateo pain studies which showed that

322
00:12:34,330 --> 00:12:30,470
there was a change in behavior from

323
00:12:36,070 --> 00:12:34,340
circumcision pain among infants and what

324
00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:36,080
they did was they tested children when

325
00:12:39,310 --> 00:12:37,850
they were being vaccinated and they

326
00:12:41,020 --> 00:12:39,320
found that one group of infants being

327
00:12:42,580 --> 00:12:41,030
vaccinated responded much more

328
00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:42,590
dramatically to the paint so they give a

329
00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:44,210
child a vaccine they put the needle and

330
00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:46,430
for that some children you know it's

331
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:47,930
uncomfortable for them but they're able

332
00:12:51,730 --> 00:12:49,600
to endure it and others react

333
00:12:53,230 --> 00:12:51,740
dramatically oh they act like this is

334
00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:53,240
the most horrible thing that's happened

335
00:12:56,680 --> 00:12:55,370
to them and so the researchers were

336
00:12:58,450 --> 00:12:56,690
trying to figure out why is one group of

337
00:12:59,950 --> 00:12:58,460
children responding so dramatically to

338
00:13:01,180 --> 00:12:59,960
the pain you know they're looking at

339
00:13:04,560 --> 00:13:01,190
with a breastfed where they not

340
00:13:07,390 --> 00:13:04,570
breastfed did they come from a different

341
00:13:09,090 --> 00:13:07,400
background or birth style or something

342
00:13:10,690 --> 00:13:09,100
like that and it was actually

343
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:10,700
circumcision that was the defining

344
00:13:14,170 --> 00:13:12,410
factor so children who were circumcised

345
00:13:16,690 --> 00:13:14,180
responded much more dramatically to the

346
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:16,700
pain and the researchers attributed this

347
00:13:20,860 --> 00:13:19,010
to PTSD post traumatic stress disorder

348
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:20,870
meaning that they believe that the

349
00:13:25,810 --> 00:13:23,330
children had this very painful

350
00:13:27,370 --> 00:13:25,820
experience of circumcision where again

351
00:13:28,750 --> 00:13:27,380
at the time this study was done it was

352
00:13:31,840 --> 00:13:28,760
being performed without any anesthesia

353
00:13:33,910 --> 00:13:31,850
and when they felt pain again

354
00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:33,920
there was a traumatic flashback to the

355
00:13:37,660 --> 00:13:35,210
pain of circumcision that they were

356
00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:37,670
reacting to in addition to the pain of

357
00:13:43,210 --> 00:13:41,660
that moment so you know again it is hard

358
00:13:43,890 --> 00:13:43,220
to sometimes put a one to one

359
00:13:45,930 --> 00:13:43,900
correlation

360
00:13:47,790 --> 00:13:45,940
or even talk about a particular person's

361
00:13:49,950 --> 00:13:47,800
pain without just simply accepting that

362
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:49,960
that's their experience but there is

363
00:13:55,050 --> 00:13:52,330
research that by the way is accepted by

364
00:13:56,430 --> 00:13:55,060
both sides of the debate that indicates

365
00:13:58,950 --> 00:13:56,440
that there is post-traumatic stress

366
00:14:00,120 --> 00:13:58,960
disorder from circumcision right I

367
00:14:01,980 --> 00:14:00,130
thought that was one of the most

368
00:14:04,350 --> 00:14:01,990
fascinating studies and it makes a lot

369
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:04,360
of sense it's kind of like if you're in

370
00:14:07,770 --> 00:14:06,310
a room with someone who's been shot and

371
00:14:09,540 --> 00:14:07,780
you pull a gun out they're gonna have a

372
00:14:11,700 --> 00:14:09,550
reaction to that like get that thing

373
00:14:13,830 --> 00:14:11,710
away from me I know bad things happen

374
00:14:15,270 --> 00:14:13,840
when I'm involved with this kind of room

375
00:14:17,370 --> 00:14:15,280
and environment and you start bringing

376
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:17,380
something out to touch me with it makes

377
00:14:21,870 --> 00:14:19,810
sense I mean intuitively as you said you

378
00:14:24,540 --> 00:14:21,880
can see how that kind of thing

379
00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:24,550
what happened and there's another moment

380
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:25,930
in the film that I think is interesting

381
00:14:30,810 --> 00:14:28,240
where one of the pro circumcision guys

382
00:14:32,790 --> 00:14:30,820
says again downplaying it it's no big

383
00:14:35,070 --> 00:14:32,800
deal in fact sometimes babies sleep

384
00:14:36,180 --> 00:14:35,080
through the procedure and it's like you

385
00:14:38,010 --> 00:14:36,190
come back on the other side and say

386
00:14:40,170 --> 00:14:38,020
actually sometimes they go into shock

387
00:14:42,930 --> 00:14:40,180
from the procedure I wouldn't call it

388
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:42,940
sleepy and I'd call it a a protective

389
00:14:46,890 --> 00:14:45,010
haze to keep that you know pain

390
00:14:49,740 --> 00:14:46,900
threshold down or whatever it is but

391
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:49,750
yeah I think that's just one of the

392
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:52,330
issues surrounding the way people look

393
00:14:56,100 --> 00:14:54,010
at this thing and the language like you

394
00:14:58,590 --> 00:14:56,110
said the cultural Nick it's more than a

395
00:15:00,540 --> 00:14:58,600
nick and it's just interesting that

396
00:15:02,910 --> 00:15:00,550
someone who's such an advocate for that

397
00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:02,920
would be ignorant to the fact that no

398
00:15:08,340 --> 00:15:05,530
this is a reaction to pain this is going

399
00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:08,350
into shock yeah one of the things that I

400
00:15:14,010 --> 00:15:11,310
have found about this issue is that

401
00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:14,020
there seems to be a divide not just on

402
00:15:17,130 --> 00:15:15,400
people who are for and against

403
00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:17,140
circumcision but people who are willing

404
00:15:22,620 --> 00:15:20,290
to accept the emotions and feelings of

405
00:15:24,540 --> 00:15:22,630
others is valid and people who aren't

406
00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:24,550
and when you talk to a lot of pro

407
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:27,490
circumcision advocates they feel like

408
00:15:32,700 --> 00:15:30,010
they have this data which indicates that

409
00:15:35,220 --> 00:15:32,710
circumcision is good and all of those

410
00:15:37,020 --> 00:15:35,230
human experiences and emotions and

411
00:15:40,650 --> 00:15:37,030
feelings can just be discounted because

412
00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:40,660
we don't know how to quantify them in an

413
00:15:46,050 --> 00:15:44,260
academic paper and so when they talk

414
00:15:46,890 --> 00:15:46,060
about the pain that infants experience

415
00:15:48,780 --> 00:15:46,900
and things like that

416
00:15:50,670 --> 00:15:48,790
to anyone who's in the room when this

417
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:50,680
procedures being done it's clear the

418
00:15:55,410 --> 00:15:54,250
child is in pain but among doctors and

419
00:15:57,700 --> 00:15:55,420
academics they say well we don't know

420
00:16:00,400 --> 00:15:57,710
how to quantify that so it must not

421
00:16:02,140 --> 00:16:00,410
list which is a huge leap I mean there's

422
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:02,150
no studies to indicate that it doesn't

423
00:16:06,970 --> 00:16:05,570
exist and even among things like the

424
00:16:08,740 --> 00:16:06,980
study I mentioned where they show that

425
00:16:10,660 --> 00:16:08,750
there is post-traumatic stress disorder

426
00:16:12,220 --> 00:16:10,670
among some infants who've experienced

427
00:16:14,110 --> 00:16:12,230
this they'll say well that obviously

428
00:16:16,270 --> 00:16:14,120
just goes away when they're older and

429
00:16:17,740 --> 00:16:16,280
doesn't affect adults and it's like how

430
00:16:20,500 --> 00:16:17,750
do you know that there's no study to

431
00:16:22,060 --> 00:16:20,510
indicate that if anything the opposite

432
00:16:23,590 --> 00:16:22,070
would be true based on what we know

433
00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:23,600
about trauma and the way that affects

434
00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:25,250
people that if it isn't healed or dealt

435
00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:28,760
with it grows worse or its remains in

436
00:16:33,910 --> 00:16:31,010
the body so I think that there's another

437
00:16:36,130 --> 00:16:33,920
layer there and that layer again if you

438
00:16:38,170 --> 00:16:36,140
understand the nature of trauma it makes

439
00:16:41,350 --> 00:16:38,180
sense that people would want to discount

440
00:16:43,510 --> 00:16:41,360
this or not admit it because that's a

441
00:16:45,310 --> 00:16:43,520
psychological defense against feeling

442
00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:45,320
those feelings because if they admit

443
00:16:48,850 --> 00:16:47,330
those feelings are valid in others they

444
00:16:52,060 --> 00:16:48,860
might have to admit they're valid in

445
00:16:55,090 --> 00:16:52,070
themself and what does that mean deep

446
00:16:57,280 --> 00:16:55,100
man yes we are funny creatures but that

447
00:16:59,020 --> 00:16:57,290
pattern seems to exist in so many

448
00:17:01,540 --> 00:16:59,030
different issues and this is definitely

449
00:17:03,820 --> 00:17:01,550
one of them and one of the main things

450
00:17:06,820 --> 00:17:03,830
that I learned one of the first things I

451
00:17:09,460 --> 00:17:06,830
learned is about how the practice

452
00:17:11,620 --> 00:17:09,470
evolved or maybe we should say devolved

453
00:17:14,410 --> 00:17:11,630
over time because the amount of tissue

454
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:14,420
that we removed today is a shockingly

455
00:17:19,870 --> 00:17:16,970
larger amount than was removed in the

456
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:19,880
beginning right yeah I think one of the

457
00:17:23,380 --> 00:17:21,290
things that people think about this

458
00:17:25,810 --> 00:17:23,390
issue is they say well it's in the Bible

459
00:17:27,550 --> 00:17:25,820
so it must be okay because we sort of

460
00:17:31,030 --> 00:17:27,560
have a cultural bias that things in the

461
00:17:33,310 --> 00:17:31,040
Bible are probably okay and in reality

462
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:33,320
the type of circumcision that was

463
00:17:38,770 --> 00:17:36,290
practiced in ancient Israel in Old

464
00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:38,780
Testament you know Torah biblical times

465
00:17:44,350 --> 00:17:41,690
is different than the practice that we

466
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:44,360
do in modern America so it used to be

467
00:17:47,950 --> 00:17:46,340
that they would only remove the very tip

468
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:47,960
of the foreskin what's known as the

469
00:17:53,710 --> 00:17:50,570
ridge band the part that comes and hangs

470
00:17:55,450 --> 00:17:53,720
over the glans of the penis and they did

471
00:17:56,830 --> 00:17:55,460
that because it was fused to the head of

472
00:17:58,720 --> 00:17:56,840
the glans so the same way that your

473
00:18:01,390 --> 00:17:58,730
fingernail is fused to your finger when

474
00:18:03,010 --> 00:18:01,400
a child is born the foreskin is fused to

475
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:03,020
the head of their glands and it makes

476
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:04,330
sense from a biological perspective

477
00:18:09,820 --> 00:18:07,730
because a newborn infant doesn't need to

478
00:18:11,630 --> 00:18:09,830
use their penis in the way that an adult

479
00:18:14,539 --> 00:18:11,640
sexual being

480
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:14,549
and usually in adolescence or when that

481
00:18:19,310 --> 00:18:17,760
child is older that barrier loosens and

482
00:18:21,020 --> 00:18:19,320
the foreskin is able to glide up and

483
00:18:22,910 --> 00:18:21,030
down the penis but when the practice

484
00:18:27,740 --> 00:18:22,920
first began it was just the ridge band

485
00:18:29,660 --> 00:18:27,750
and in the Hellenistic period and

486
00:18:32,630 --> 00:18:29,670
thousands of year hundreds of years

487
00:18:35,710 --> 00:18:32,640
later I should say there was a change in

488
00:18:38,630 --> 00:18:35,720
the practice and the change came because

489
00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:38,640
Jewish men wanted to participate in

490
00:18:43,039 --> 00:18:41,250
Roman athletic events and Roman athletic

491
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:43,049
events were typically done in the nude

492
00:18:48,380 --> 00:18:45,570
and having the glans of your penis

493
00:18:50,030 --> 00:18:48,390
exposed was considered lewd you know if

494
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:50,040
you think about it when the penis is

495
00:18:54,140 --> 00:18:51,690
flaccid when it's not erect

496
00:18:57,020 --> 00:18:54,150
that skin is going to cover the head of

497
00:18:58,789 --> 00:18:57,030
the penis and so having an exposed would

498
00:19:00,350 --> 00:18:58,799
be seen as lewd and sexual because that

499
00:19:02,630 --> 00:19:00,360
would only happen if someone was getting

500
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:02,640
an erection and so these Jewish men

501
00:19:05,870 --> 00:19:04,290
would clip their foreskin forward they

502
00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:05,880
were essentially tie it over the head of

503
00:19:09,590 --> 00:19:08,130
the penis so that they looked like

504
00:19:10,970 --> 00:19:09,600
Romans because they didn't want to look

505
00:19:12,860 --> 00:19:10,980
different and they didn't want to be

506
00:19:16,970 --> 00:19:12,870
singled out as weird or having had this

507
00:19:19,130 --> 00:19:16,980
strange surgery and the Jewish priests

508
00:19:20,870 --> 00:19:19,140
the rabbi didn't like that because this

509
00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:20,880
was supposed to make them look different

510
00:19:26,419 --> 00:19:23,490
and so they were trying to pass as

511
00:19:29,570 --> 00:19:26,429
Romans rather than identify as Jews so

512
00:19:32,210 --> 00:19:29,580
they changed the practice to remove not

513
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:32,220
just the very tip of the foreskin but

514
00:19:36,530 --> 00:19:34,410
the entire foreskin and would break it

515
00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:36,540
away and pull it forward and do what we

516
00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:39,059
now think of as circumcision and that's

517
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:40,770
a lot more tissue and it's a lot more

518
00:19:45,409 --> 00:19:43,410
radical a procedure so anything when

519
00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:45,419
people talk about you know for example

520
00:19:50,120 --> 00:19:47,970
biblical circumcision they don't realize

521
00:19:51,770 --> 00:19:50,130
that what they're practicing is not what

522
00:19:53,930 --> 00:19:51,780
happened in ancient Israel it's

523
00:19:58,909 --> 00:19:53,940
something much more radical and it was

524
00:20:02,210 --> 00:19:58,919
done specifically to prevent Jewish men

525
00:20:04,039 --> 00:20:02,220
from passing as Gentiles yeah I thought

526
00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:04,049
that little bit of history with the

527
00:20:10,130 --> 00:20:06,570
Roman games was really fascinating and

528
00:20:13,549 --> 00:20:10,140
it's weird how little microcosms like

529
00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:13,559
that can explode into this tradition

530
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:15,450
that most people in America have

531
00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:18,000
experienced and just makes no sense and

532
00:20:23,270 --> 00:20:20,190
has no relation to anything in their

533
00:20:25,130 --> 00:20:23,280
life and the religious aspect is also

534
00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:25,140
interesting because I grew up in a

535
00:20:30,740 --> 00:20:28,920
Catholic school where everyone I knew

536
00:20:33,170 --> 00:20:30,750
was circumcised except the one kid who

537
00:20:35,150 --> 00:20:33,180
was adopted from overseas and that's how

538
00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:35,160
I learned there even was a difference

539
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:37,200
when I was a kid because we just had one

540
00:20:42,230 --> 00:20:39,810
example and you know he felt like the

541
00:20:45,170 --> 00:20:42,240
odd man out little did he know that we

542
00:20:46,610 --> 00:20:45,180
were all traumatized and damaged in a

543
00:20:49,190 --> 00:20:46,620
sense I mean I don't want to be overly

544
00:20:50,540 --> 00:20:49,200
dramatic but when you watch the film you

545
00:20:51,350 --> 00:20:50,550
can't help but have those kind of

546
00:20:54,050 --> 00:20:51,360
feelings about it

547
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:54,060
and oddly it's not a Christian or

548
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:55,890
Catholic tradition and I guess the Bible

549
00:21:00,080 --> 00:20:57,840
says that you know once you have the

550
00:21:02,660 --> 00:21:00,090
Jesus sacrifice that you no longer have

551
00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:02,670
to make these kind of blood sacrifices

552
00:21:06,170 --> 00:21:04,770
or alterations and that's a curious

553
00:21:07,430 --> 00:21:06,180
thing because I guess it gets back to

554
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:07,440
the point that it's more of an American

555
00:21:12,740 --> 00:21:09,930
tradition than it is a religious one and

556
00:21:15,350 --> 00:21:12,750
we're the only Western civilized country

557
00:21:17,570 --> 00:21:15,360
in the world that has this non religious

558
00:21:19,990 --> 00:21:17,580
circumcision tradition which is I guess

559
00:21:24,110 --> 00:21:20,000
why the film is called American

560
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:24,120
circumcision exactly and I think a lot

561
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:26,310
of people in America think of it as a

562
00:21:31,430 --> 00:21:28,650
Christian thing when in reality the New

563
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:31,440
Testament says that circumcision is a

564
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:32,970
mutilation and you're not supposed to

565
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:36,090
perform it that essentially circumcision

566
00:21:40,100 --> 00:21:37,410
in the Jewish tradition is a blood

567
00:21:41,780 --> 00:21:40,110
sacrifice and in Christianity the idea

568
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:41,790
is that Christ was the last blood

569
00:21:46,460 --> 00:21:43,710
sacrifice you know he died for everyone

570
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:46,470
sins and so if you're performing blood

571
00:21:52,790 --> 00:21:50,190
sacrifices for some sort of reason in

572
00:21:54,290 --> 00:21:52,800
the Christian tradition then you're sort

573
00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:54,300
of denying your faith in Christ you're

574
00:21:58,600 --> 00:21:56,310
saying well his sacrifice wasn't enough

575
00:22:01,630 --> 00:21:58,610
so we need to do this other stuff

576
00:22:02,890 --> 00:22:01,640
and America is unique in this practice

577
00:22:05,620 --> 00:22:02,900
that is part of the reason the film has

578
00:22:09,039 --> 00:22:05,630
the title that it does most of the world

579
00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:09,049
does not practice this it's practiced in

580
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:10,970
Jewish nations and Jewish culture and

581
00:22:14,590 --> 00:22:12,770
it's practiced in Muslim nations and

582
00:22:17,980 --> 00:22:14,600
Muslim culture and some tribal parts of

583
00:22:19,750 --> 00:22:17,990
Africa but it's really small I mean

584
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:19,760
there's like a tiny percentage around

585
00:22:24,460 --> 00:22:21,770
the world for you know obvious reasons

586
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,470
the fact that there's a lot of people

587
00:22:28,120 --> 00:22:26,000
from different cultures living across

588
00:22:31,299 --> 00:22:28,130
the world but really it's a uniquely

589
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:31,309
American practice to have routine infant

590
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:34,910
circumcision and I think a lot of

591
00:22:38,590 --> 00:22:36,710
Americans assume that this is something

592
00:22:39,970 --> 00:22:38,600
normal that everyone does it you know

593
00:22:42,010 --> 00:22:39,980
I've seen threads where there's some

594
00:22:44,020 --> 00:22:42,020
boomer in the thread essentially saying

595
00:22:47,250 --> 00:22:44,030
well I had the placenta cut and that's

596
00:22:49,330 --> 00:22:47,260
obviously the same thing and it's not

597
00:22:50,830 --> 00:22:49,340
they just sort of have this idea it's

598
00:22:53,409 --> 00:22:50,840
just a standard routine thing that

599
00:22:55,330 --> 00:22:53,419
everyone does when in fact Americans are

600
00:22:57,430 --> 00:22:55,340
in the minority here and actually even

601
00:23:00,940 --> 00:22:57,440
in America the rate of circumcision is

602
00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:00,950
dropping so a child born today when

603
00:23:06,100 --> 00:23:02,690
they're an adult will probably be in the

604
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:06,110
minority if they're circumcised hmm it's

605
00:23:09,909 --> 00:23:07,850
all just so interesting and getting back

606
00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:09,919
to the procedure itself in the tissue

607
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:11,840
that's removed I thought this was really

608
00:23:15,850 --> 00:23:13,730
important and one of the film's subjects

609
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:15,860
Glenn Callender the founder of the

610
00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:18,770
Canadian foreskin awareness project he

611
00:23:21,970 --> 00:23:20,510
says something that really stuck out to

612
00:23:23,980 --> 00:23:21,980
me where he mentions the feminist

613
00:23:25,510 --> 00:23:23,990
movement and how one of the major points

614
00:23:27,340 --> 00:23:25,520
was that women were not getting enough

615
00:23:28,870 --> 00:23:27,350
sexual pleasure because the culture was

616
00:23:30,730 --> 00:23:28,880
so repressed that they didn't have

617
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:30,740
enough knowledge of their own bodies of

618
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:32,450
the clitoris the g-spot and all this

619
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:34,850
sort of stuff but the real irony is that

620
00:23:39,010 --> 00:23:37,250
men are actually further back than women

621
00:23:41,110 --> 00:23:39,020
are because we are so ignorant about

622
00:23:43,870 --> 00:23:41,120
what's actually cut off and how we're

623
00:23:45,340 --> 00:23:43,880
affected and it's a big deal can you

624
00:23:48,010 --> 00:23:45,350
talk to us a little bit about this

625
00:23:50,529 --> 00:23:48,020
aspect and the actual tissue that's

626
00:23:52,749 --> 00:23:50,539
removed and some of the other parts

627
00:23:55,060 --> 00:23:52,759
right if you look at female sexuality

628
00:23:57,879 --> 00:23:55,070
and the way that we understand female

629
00:24:00,339 --> 00:23:57,889
sexuality now it's known that women have

630
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:00,349
different parts that get different types

631
00:24:04,749 --> 00:24:02,690
of orgasm so for example the orgasm that

632
00:24:06,369 --> 00:24:04,759
comes from the clitoris is different

633
00:24:09,639 --> 00:24:06,379
than the orgasm that comes from the

634
00:24:11,469 --> 00:24:09,649
g-spot and there is a cultural

635
00:24:12,849 --> 00:24:11,479
conversation or at least a conversation

636
00:24:15,489 --> 00:24:12,859
among people who are talking about

637
00:24:17,259 --> 00:24:15,499
sexuality openly that those are

638
00:24:19,299 --> 00:24:17,269
different and there are different types

639
00:24:20,499 --> 00:24:19,309
of pleasure whereas when we look at the

640
00:24:23,829 --> 00:24:20,509
way that we understand male pleasure

641
00:24:26,169 --> 00:24:23,839
it's this very simplistic you know the

642
00:24:28,089 --> 00:24:26,179
penis goes in and it feels good on that

643
00:24:31,029 --> 00:24:28,099
part of the body and we don't talk about

644
00:24:33,159 --> 00:24:31,039
different types of male pleasure or that

645
00:24:35,259 --> 00:24:33,169
the different parts of men's genitals

646
00:24:36,879 --> 00:24:35,269
might have different sensations we just

647
00:24:40,479 --> 00:24:36,889
sort of see the penis all as one

648
00:24:42,099 --> 00:24:40,489
structure largely because the additional

649
00:24:46,089 --> 00:24:42,109
parts of that part of the body have been

650
00:24:48,609 --> 00:24:46,099
removed in American culture so if you

651
00:24:51,399 --> 00:24:48,619
actually look at the full intact male

652
00:24:53,169 --> 00:24:51,409
genitals there are multiple types of

653
00:24:55,299 --> 00:24:53,179
sensation you can get from different

654
00:24:57,430 --> 00:24:55,309
parts of it there is the ridge band

655
00:24:59,680 --> 00:24:57,440
which is the very tip of the foreskin

656
00:25:02,979 --> 00:24:59,690
that acts almost has a drawstring that

657
00:25:06,069 --> 00:25:02,989
holds the foreskin over top the edge of

658
00:25:07,089 --> 00:25:06,079
the glans and if you look at the nerve

659
00:25:08,859 --> 00:25:07,099
endings there there's some of the most

660
00:25:10,209 --> 00:25:08,869
concentrated in the male body there's a

661
00:25:12,279 --> 00:25:10,219
high concentration of what are known as

662
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:12,289
meissner's corpuscles which are the kind

663
00:25:16,689 --> 00:25:14,690
of sensory touch nerves that are in your

664
00:25:18,729 --> 00:25:16,699
hand they're also the kind that you have

665
00:25:20,589 --> 00:25:18,739
around your lips and all the openings of

666
00:25:22,239 --> 00:25:20,599
the body and if you think about it it

667
00:25:24,519 --> 00:25:22,249
would make sense from a biological

668
00:25:26,379 --> 00:25:24,529
perspective that we would have a lot of

669
00:25:28,299 --> 00:25:26,389
nerve endings around the openings of the

670
00:25:30,369 --> 00:25:28,309
body because if something is being put

671
00:25:32,259 --> 00:25:30,379
inside you you know you'd want to know

672
00:25:34,930 --> 00:25:32,269
about it right so there's a lot of

673
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,940
sensation there in the ridge band of the

674
00:25:38,349 --> 00:25:36,559
foreskin there's a lot of sensation in

675
00:25:40,779 --> 00:25:38,359
the frenulum which is that part on the

676
00:25:42,519 --> 00:25:40,789
underside of the penis that holds the

677
00:25:44,829 --> 00:25:42,529
unit of a friend ulam in your lip it

678
00:25:47,349 --> 00:25:44,839
holds your lip in place and your tongue

679
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:47,359
down and again there's a lot of

680
00:25:51,249 --> 00:25:49,369
sensation there and depending on how

681
00:25:53,259 --> 00:25:51,259
someone was circumcised they may have

682
00:25:54,999 --> 00:25:53,269
more of that sensation left than others

683
00:25:56,979 --> 00:25:55,009
again it's not like there's a dotted

684
00:25:59,440 --> 00:25:56,989
line on men that says like cut here

685
00:26:01,899 --> 00:25:59,450
right so this procedure is done very

686
00:26:03,940 --> 00:26:01,909
unevenly person to person and there are

687
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:03,950
some people that got to keep more

688
00:26:07,330 --> 00:26:05,450
the sensation that they were born with

689
00:26:08,799 --> 00:26:07,340
and there are others who had more remove

690
00:26:12,009 --> 00:26:08,809
so some men may still have their friend

691
00:26:13,690 --> 00:26:12,019
ulam and if they were to run an

692
00:26:14,769 --> 00:26:13,700
experiment on themselves to see what

693
00:26:17,379 --> 00:26:14,779
they could feel with that part of the

694
00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:17,389
body they would feel a lot more there

695
00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:18,590
than they might feel in the head of the

696
00:26:22,659 --> 00:26:20,690
penis the head of the penis is actually

697
00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:22,669
one of the least sensory parts of the

698
00:26:27,669 --> 00:26:25,100
man if you look at the number of nerve

699
00:26:30,190 --> 00:26:27,679
endings it's actually more so the inner

700
00:26:32,409 --> 00:26:30,200
lining of the foreskin that has more and

701
00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:32,419
again you know if you are circumcised

702
00:26:37,509 --> 00:26:34,990
there'll be a scar line and there's

703
00:26:40,269 --> 00:26:37,519
tissue below that scar line that's a

704
00:26:42,639 --> 00:26:40,279
maybe a little darker and a little

705
00:26:44,710 --> 00:26:42,649
rougher and tissue above it that's a

706
00:26:46,269 --> 00:26:44,720
little lighter and if you were to just

707
00:26:48,549 --> 00:26:46,279
run your finger over that there would

708
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:48,559
probably be more sensation on the

709
00:26:52,090 --> 00:26:50,510
remaining inner lining of the foreskin

710
00:26:54,279 --> 00:26:52,100
the area above that scar line then there

711
00:26:56,049 --> 00:26:54,289
would be below and I know that this is

712
00:26:58,480 --> 00:26:56,059
may seem a bit graphic to some people

713
00:27:02,470 --> 00:26:58,490
this is like a very in-depth discussion

714
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:02,480
of sexuality and probably more than most

715
00:27:08,409 --> 00:27:05,450
men or really anyone has had a guy about

716
00:27:09,850 --> 00:27:08,419
male sexuality before but I think it's

717
00:27:11,769 --> 00:27:09,860
important to have that conversation

718
00:27:14,830 --> 00:27:11,779
because we've had that conversation

719
00:27:17,289 --> 00:27:14,840
around women and think about where women

720
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:17,299
would be and how much pleasure they get

721
00:27:21,159 --> 00:27:20,090
out of their sexuality if we lived in a

722
00:27:24,009 --> 00:27:21,169
time when we didn't even acknowledge

723
00:27:25,450 --> 00:27:24,019
that women had orgasms which is there

724
00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:25,460
have been periods of history when that

725
00:27:30,549 --> 00:27:27,860
was the case right so we haven't had

726
00:27:31,690 --> 00:27:30,559
that conversation yet about men and if

727
00:27:33,879 --> 00:27:31,700
we're willing to have that conversation

728
00:27:36,159 --> 00:27:33,889
if we're willing to acknowledge these

729
00:27:38,350 --> 00:27:36,169
aspects of our biology and our sexuality

730
00:27:40,360 --> 00:27:38,360
then we could start to experience those

731
00:27:42,370 --> 00:27:40,370
types of pleasure and even if you are

732
00:27:44,710 --> 00:27:42,380
circumcised even if you don't have all

733
00:27:49,070 --> 00:27:44,720
of those parts you'll be more aware of

734
00:27:51,410 --> 00:27:49,080
the pleasure you can get so instead of

735
00:27:53,180 --> 00:27:51,420
just having a generalized feeling that

736
00:27:55,340 --> 00:27:53,190
this is like okay well when I have sex

737
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:55,350
it feels good you'll be aware of the

738
00:27:59,360 --> 00:27:57,090
places in your body it feels good and

739
00:28:02,420 --> 00:27:59,370
able to get more pleasure from them

740
00:28:05,390 --> 00:28:02,430
mm-hmm yes I definitely think it is

741
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:05,400
important yet uncomfortable but through

742
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:07,200
that lens of looking at women's

743
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:09,770
sexuality I mean any guy who has

744
00:28:16,340 --> 00:28:13,410
investigated a lot of that stuff in the

745
00:28:18,830 --> 00:28:16,350
interest of pleasing women I think it

746
00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:18,840
creates a good template to think about

747
00:28:23,870 --> 00:28:22,110
the possibilities of the male orgasm and

748
00:28:26,420 --> 00:28:23,880
stuff this guy Glenn calendar

749
00:28:28,220 --> 00:28:26,430
he calls himself a professional foreskin

750
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:28,230
demonstrator and apparently he does

751
00:28:32,990 --> 00:28:30,720
these demonstrations well he'll even

752
00:28:34,310 --> 00:28:33,000
show videos of the different orgasms I

753
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:34,320
mean because how else do you do it you

754
00:28:38,270 --> 00:28:35,850
know it might be embarrassing for him

755
00:28:40,490 --> 00:28:38,280
but he's trying to do something positive

756
00:28:42,380 --> 00:28:40,500
and so you got to show this stuff he

757
00:28:44,420 --> 00:28:42,390
shows videos of him having five

758
00:28:46,820 --> 00:28:44,430
different orgasms in two minutes all

759
00:28:50,060 --> 00:28:46,830
kinds of things that I think a lot of

760
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:50,070
guys would find to be strange even guys

761
00:28:53,870 --> 00:28:51,690
who've had a lot of sex and that's

762
00:28:56,450 --> 00:28:53,880
what's really interesting to me is you

763
00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:56,460
can have sex hundreds of times without

764
00:29:01,460 --> 00:28:59,010
ever really thinking about this kind of

765
00:29:04,070 --> 00:29:01,470
stuff and it's just a weird way that the

766
00:29:06,980 --> 00:29:04,080
brain works yeah well if you think about

767
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:06,990
how people's misconceptions about sex

768
00:29:11,210 --> 00:29:09,930
get challenged or changed I mean when

769
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:11,220
you were a kid you probably had all

770
00:29:16,850 --> 00:29:13,410
sorts of misconceptions about sex right

771
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:16,860
mm-hm and the way that you change your

772
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:18,930
perspective on those is usually either

773
00:29:25,250 --> 00:29:21,570
you learn through first-hand experience

774
00:29:27,020 --> 00:29:25,260
or someone tells you and when it comes

775
00:29:30,590 --> 00:29:27,030
to the issue of circumcision and the

776
00:29:32,540 --> 00:29:30,600
foreskin most people don't have

777
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:32,550
experience with that part of the body

778
00:29:36,710 --> 00:29:34,410
especially if they're men especially if

779
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:36,720
they're straight men they only know the

780
00:29:40,940 --> 00:29:39,570
body that they have and the wider

781
00:29:42,890 --> 00:29:40,950
culture doesn't clear up those

782
00:29:44,150 --> 00:29:42,900
misconceptions in fact it reinforces

783
00:29:46,550 --> 00:29:44,160
misconceptions and creates new

784
00:29:49,670 --> 00:29:46,560
misconceptions so there's no point at

785
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:49,680
which those childlike misconceptions

786
00:29:53,810 --> 00:29:51,510
about the body would ever be challenged

787
00:29:55,850 --> 00:29:53,820
and so that's part of the reason you

788
00:29:57,950 --> 00:29:55,860
have to have a very direct conversation

789
00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:57,960
about things on this issue because the

790
00:30:01,580 --> 00:29:59,220
wider culture isn't having that

791
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,590
conversation mm-hmm and you know we

792
00:30:06,530 --> 00:30:03,600
consider female circum

793
00:30:08,210 --> 00:30:06,540
so repulsive and barbaric like how could

794
00:30:11,450 --> 00:30:08,220
you remove the clitoris but the frenulum

795
00:30:13,130 --> 00:30:11,460
this area is similar to what could

796
00:30:15,860 --> 00:30:13,140
equate to a male clitoris and we're

797
00:30:17,990 --> 00:30:15,870
removing all of it or most of it or some

798
00:30:20,090 --> 00:30:18,000
of it like you said there's no standard

799
00:30:21,950 --> 00:30:20,100
which is scary enough but these

800
00:30:24,890 --> 00:30:21,960
sensitivity studies you talk about in

801
00:30:26,990 --> 00:30:24,900
the film prove that the most sensitive

802
00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:27,000
part was the foreskin and in circumcised

803
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:29,700
men it's the ring from the scar and

804
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:31,770
that's interesting in itself but they

805
00:30:39,530 --> 00:30:36,210
say they could equate for its 75% loss

806
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:39,540
of fine touch sensation eighty thousand

807
00:30:46,390 --> 00:30:41,970
to a hundred thousand of those Meissner

808
00:30:49,090 --> 00:30:46,400
corpuscles removed that's insane man

809
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:49,100
it's a lot and I think too in Western

810
00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:51,370
culture there is this narrative that

811
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:53,990
female circumcision is this horrible

812
00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:56,930
thing designed to destroy women's

813
00:31:01,030 --> 00:30:58,880
sexuality and that circumcised women

814
00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:01,040
basically can't even enjoy their bodies

815
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:04,150
at all whereas male circumcision is this

816
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:07,010
medical procedure which somehow improves

817
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:09,170
and makes men healthier and there's a

818
00:31:13,390 --> 00:31:11,450
lot of sexism in that narrative there's

819
00:31:16,420 --> 00:31:13,400
an idea in there that men and male

820
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:16,430
sexuality is somehow born wrong in need

821
00:31:21,430 --> 00:31:18,650
of fixing and there's this idea that

822
00:31:23,260 --> 00:31:21,440
female bodies are somehow more to be

823
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:23,270
protected and more special than male

824
00:31:28,270 --> 00:31:25,370
bodies and there's also an idea in there

825
00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:28,280
that American cultural practices are

826
00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:31,190
universally good and okay and foreign

827
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:33,230
practices the practices of brown people

828
00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:36,170
and African people are somehow really

829
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:40,190
bad and awful and barbaric and when you

830
00:31:44,919 --> 00:31:42,320
actually look at the two procedures they

831
00:31:46,630 --> 00:31:44,929
are more similar than different because

832
00:31:49,030 --> 00:31:46,640
there is no culture that practices

833
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:49,040
female circumcision that doesn't also

834
00:31:52,870 --> 00:31:51,650
practice male circumcision there are

835
00:31:54,490 --> 00:31:52,880
cultures that just practice male

836
00:31:57,030 --> 00:31:54,500
circumcision but there's no culture that

837
00:31:59,440 --> 00:31:57,040
just practices female circumcision and

838
00:32:00,820 --> 00:31:59,450
the circumcised women especially those

839
00:32:04,090 --> 00:32:00,830
I've interviewed in the film who I've

840
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:04,100
talked to almost always say that male

841
00:32:08,799 --> 00:32:06,650
circumcision is also wrong and they see

842
00:32:12,190 --> 00:32:08,809
the two practices as comparable and

843
00:32:13,660 --> 00:32:12,200
similar and it's really only privileged

844
00:32:15,220 --> 00:32:13,670
white people and people from Western

845
00:32:16,990 --> 00:32:15,230
nations who somehow make a distinction

846
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:17,000
between the two because they want to see

847
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:19,370
their version of genital cutting as good

848
00:32:23,710 --> 00:32:21,770
and beneficial and don't necessarily

849
00:32:28,810 --> 00:32:23,720
want to look at the similarities between

850
00:32:31,450 --> 00:32:28,820
those practices and let's do talk about

851
00:32:33,490 --> 00:32:31,460
some of the pro arguments or the common

852
00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:33,500
misconceptions the things that people

853
00:32:37,900 --> 00:32:35,390
who are listening now might get faced

854
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:37,910
with if they start trying to become

855
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:39,410
advocates for this kind of stuff what

856
00:32:44,049 --> 00:32:41,570
are the typical talking points and how

857
00:32:46,540 --> 00:32:44,059
accurate are they so part of the

858
00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:46,550
challenge with pro circumcision talking

859
00:32:52,090 --> 00:32:48,950
points is that they fit in a headline

860
00:32:53,799 --> 00:32:52,100
and don't make a lot of sense when you

861
00:32:57,130 --> 00:32:53,809
start deconstructing them so when you

862
00:33:00,090 --> 00:32:57,140
say well it's cleaner okay cleaner how

863
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:00,100
do you mean less sure

864
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:04,320
like do you have a study to back that up

865
00:33:08,539 --> 00:33:06,450
does soap and water not cure whatever

866
00:33:10,249 --> 00:33:08,549
cleanliness problems you think this part

867
00:33:12,110 --> 00:33:10,259
of the body might have is there

868
00:33:13,970 --> 00:33:12,120
something inherently dirty about the

869
00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:13,980
genitals and sexuality that somehow

870
00:33:19,220 --> 00:33:16,380
different than say you know the inside

871
00:33:20,509 --> 00:33:19,230
of your ear or your mouth it doesn't

872
00:33:23,180 --> 00:33:20,519
make a lot of sense when you start

873
00:33:24,950 --> 00:33:23,190
breaking it down and part of the reason

874
00:33:26,389 --> 00:33:24,960
these sort of cultural memes don't make

875
00:33:30,049 --> 00:33:26,399
a lot of sense is when you trace them

876
00:33:31,879 --> 00:33:30,059
back their origin is different than the

877
00:33:33,289 --> 00:33:31,889
way that they're used now so when you

878
00:33:36,139 --> 00:33:33,299
hear the meme that well it's cleaner

879
00:33:40,430 --> 00:33:36,149
somehow that actually goes all the way

880
00:33:43,940 --> 00:33:40,440
back to an era when we thought sexuality

881
00:33:45,889 --> 00:33:43,950
was dirty in some way and when that

882
00:33:49,930 --> 00:33:45,899
cultural meme began it wasn't just that

883
00:33:52,549 --> 00:33:49,940
circumcision somehow made the genitals

884
00:33:54,110 --> 00:33:52,559
physically cleaner but also morally

885
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:54,120
cleaner that there was something dirty

886
00:33:59,149 --> 00:33:57,210
about sexual pleasure that needed to be

887
00:34:00,740 --> 00:33:59,159
fixed and that we're moving the most

888
00:34:04,310 --> 00:34:00,750
sensitive part of the body could fix

889
00:34:06,049 --> 00:34:04,320
this so that people would not engage and

890
00:34:07,399 --> 00:34:06,059
you know abhorrent sexuality more and

891
00:34:09,980 --> 00:34:07,409
literally it was actually even promoted

892
00:34:11,569 --> 00:34:09,990
as a cure for masturbation that was one

893
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:11,579
of the reasons that circumcision began

894
00:34:17,540 --> 00:34:13,290
in America and the Victorian era as a

895
00:34:19,250 --> 00:34:17,550
cure for masturbation so when someone

896
00:34:21,319 --> 00:34:19,260
says in modern times will it's cleaner

897
00:34:24,470 --> 00:34:21,329
they're obviously not coming from the

898
00:34:27,349 --> 00:34:24,480
same frame of mine as a Victorian trying

899
00:34:30,319 --> 00:34:27,359
to stop masturbation yet that cultural

900
00:34:32,540 --> 00:34:30,329
meme has gone through the culture so

901
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:32,550
much that it's just repeated sort of

902
00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:35,490
that thought and when you go into a lot

903
00:34:40,460 --> 00:34:38,970
of pro circumcision talking points they

904
00:34:42,740 --> 00:34:40,470
sort of fall apart under similar

905
00:34:45,169 --> 00:34:42,750
scrutiny you know there's this idea sons

906
00:34:47,240 --> 00:34:45,179
need to match their fathers will do you

907
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:47,250
remember comparing penises with your

908
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:48,810
father as a child is this something that

909
00:34:54,260 --> 00:34:50,690
like people do like that's absurd

910
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:54,270
there's no young man who feels a deep

911
00:35:01,430 --> 00:34:57,210
need for him to match his father in that

912
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:01,440
way and I think that that statement that

913
00:35:05,780 --> 00:35:03,930
justification really comes from the

914
00:35:08,210 --> 00:35:05,790
insecurities of fathers who want their

915
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:08,220
sons to look like them

916
00:35:11,599 --> 00:35:10,170
proce circumcision groups will sometimes

917
00:35:12,980 --> 00:35:11,609
to make medical arguments about

918
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:12,990
circumcision they will say that it

919
00:35:18,849 --> 00:35:15,570
reduces sexually transmitted diseases

920
00:35:20,979 --> 00:35:18,859
that it reduces the spread of HIV

921
00:35:24,099 --> 00:35:20,989
which again these are diseases that

922
00:35:26,259 --> 00:35:24,109
adults get sexual adults not necessarily

923
00:35:27,999 --> 00:35:26,269
infants and when you go into the

924
00:35:32,009 --> 00:35:28,009
research of those when you actually

925
00:35:36,370 --> 00:35:32,019
break down the data there's a lot of

926
00:35:39,039 --> 00:35:36,380
inconsistencies and it doesn't look like

927
00:35:40,809 --> 00:35:39,049
good science but again in order to do

928
00:35:43,089 --> 00:35:40,819
that you have to go really deep into the

929
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:43,099
data and most people read the headline

930
00:35:46,390 --> 00:35:44,930
they don't even read the abstract at

931
00:35:48,849 --> 00:35:46,400
these scientific studies they read the

932
00:35:50,469 --> 00:35:48,859
headline in the popular science and news

933
00:35:51,699 --> 00:35:50,479
and they think well I'm circumcised and

934
00:35:54,099 --> 00:35:51,709
I don't want to get those things so that

935
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:54,109
must be good but when you get into the

936
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,130
data on them it's really suspicious

937
00:36:01,479 --> 00:35:59,839
right I thought that was interesting too

938
00:36:03,880 --> 00:36:01,489
I mean a lot of misconceptions are

939
00:36:07,449 --> 00:36:03,890
addressed and it makes me think about

940
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:07,459
sexual abuse in general because a lot of

941
00:36:12,339 --> 00:36:09,650
times there's a pattern where the cycle

942
00:36:14,410 --> 00:36:12,349
continues or victims later in life

943
00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:14,420
become offenders and it's just

944
00:36:19,660 --> 00:36:16,609
interesting that this circumcision cycle

945
00:36:21,789 --> 00:36:19,670
has kind of the same pattern it could

946
00:36:24,939 --> 00:36:21,799
possibly be an element in the

947
00:36:27,789 --> 00:36:24,949
circumcision soup but regardless with

948
00:36:29,469 --> 00:36:27,799
the HIV rates and STD rates that's

949
00:36:32,170 --> 00:36:29,479
something that I think people have heard

950
00:36:34,779 --> 00:36:32,180
this claim that circumcised men have 60%

951
00:36:36,910 --> 00:36:34,789
lower HIV rates it's something addressed

952
00:36:38,049 --> 00:36:36,920
in the film and then someone makes the

953
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:38,059
point well that's interesting because

954
00:36:43,989 --> 00:36:41,599
America has the highest HIV and highest

955
00:36:46,420 --> 00:36:43,999
circumcision rates so how can it really

956
00:36:49,599 --> 00:36:46,430
be preventive because clearly we're

957
00:36:51,489 --> 00:36:49,609
number one in both categories yeah I've

958
00:36:54,759 --> 00:36:51,499
heard it said that circumcision is a

959
00:36:56,469 --> 00:36:54,769
cure in search of a disease meaning that

960
00:36:59,259 --> 00:36:56,479
when this practice was started in

961
00:37:01,120 --> 00:36:59,269
America HIV was not the reason it was

962
00:37:02,709 --> 00:37:01,130
done it was done for other reasons and

963
00:37:04,660 --> 00:37:02,719
when those reasons were disproved they

964
00:37:06,819 --> 00:37:04,670
found a new reason so there's a

965
00:37:09,309 --> 00:37:06,829
continual cycle to try to find a reason

966
00:37:11,049 --> 00:37:09,319
to keep doing this as the reasons we

967
00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:11,059
were doing it are disproved and don't

968
00:37:16,749 --> 00:37:14,089
make sense anymore and HIV is the latest

969
00:37:18,789 --> 00:37:16,759
one because HIV is sort of one of the

970
00:37:21,999 --> 00:37:18,799
scariest medical things out there now

971
00:37:23,620 --> 00:37:22,009
right it's the big bed if you will but

972
00:37:27,370 --> 00:37:23,630
when you actually get into the data of

973
00:37:30,759 --> 00:37:27,380
that the claim that it reduces HIV by 60

974
00:37:32,529 --> 00:37:30,769
percent is a relative risk reduction and

975
00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:32,539
the absolute

976
00:37:39,789 --> 00:37:36,169
reduction is closer to under two percent

977
00:37:42,549 --> 00:37:39,799
so if you're outside and you go inside

978
00:37:45,489 --> 00:37:42,559
you have reduced the relative risk of

979
00:37:49,029 --> 00:37:45,499
getting hit by a meteor by thousands

980
00:37:50,919 --> 00:37:49,039
percent yet what are the chances of that

981
00:37:52,509 --> 00:37:50,929
really happening right so people will

982
00:37:56,169 --> 00:37:52,519
sort of jack up their statistics by

983
00:37:57,999 --> 00:37:56,179
talking about relative risk and it's

984
00:37:59,949 --> 00:37:58,009
worth mentioning to the studies that are

985
00:38:01,929 --> 00:37:59,959
used to justify this claim we're all

986
00:38:04,779 --> 00:38:01,939
carried out in sub-saharan Africa and

987
00:38:06,789 --> 00:38:04,789
don't necessarily apply to United States

988
00:38:08,890 --> 00:38:06,799
so the reasons people get HIV in the

989
00:38:10,929 --> 00:38:08,900
United States are different than those

990
00:38:12,699 --> 00:38:10,939
in sub-saharan Africa especially in

991
00:38:15,819 --> 00:38:12,709
places where you know oftentimes there

992
00:38:18,789 --> 00:38:15,829
isn't clean running water and on top of

993
00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:18,799
all that even if we were to accept that

994
00:38:23,289 --> 00:38:21,140
circumcision reduced HIV by a certain

995
00:38:24,969 --> 00:38:23,299
percent we wouldn't accept that claim in

996
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:24,979
the case of female circumcision we would

997
00:38:30,130 --> 00:38:27,410
say well adult women have the right to

998
00:38:32,349 --> 00:38:30,140
their own body and even if something

999
00:38:35,079 --> 00:38:32,359
done to their bodies would reduce the

1000
00:38:36,309 --> 00:38:35,089
transmission of HIV they have the right

1001
00:38:37,509 --> 00:38:36,319
to make their own decision about that

1002
00:38:39,630 --> 00:38:37,519
and there are have been studies that

1003
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:39,640
suggest that female circumcision reduces

1004
00:38:44,439 --> 00:38:42,650
HIV but those studies very interestingly

1005
00:38:46,539 --> 00:38:44,449
have been scrapped partway through

1006
00:38:48,099 --> 00:38:46,549
because the researchers were afraid it

1007
00:38:50,199 --> 00:38:48,109
would be used as a justification for

1008
00:38:52,609 --> 00:38:50,209
female circumcision so the cultural

1009
00:38:54,650 --> 00:38:52,619
double standards play here too

1010
00:38:57,679 --> 00:38:54,660
and the sequence I had on the HIV

1011
00:38:59,900 --> 00:38:57,689
studies in its first version was about

1012
00:39:02,239 --> 00:38:59,910
an hour long I could do a whole

1013
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:02,249
documentary just on those studies and

1014
00:39:07,729 --> 00:39:04,890
the problems and challenges with them

1015
00:39:09,979 --> 00:39:07,739
there's the fact that more people left

1016
00:39:12,799 --> 00:39:09,989
the study than stayed in it there is the

1017
00:39:15,289 --> 00:39:12,809
fact that the group that was circumcised

1018
00:39:16,910 --> 00:39:15,299
got medical counseling that the other

1019
00:39:18,380 --> 00:39:16,920
group didn't medical counseling by the

1020
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:18,390
way in which they were told to use

1021
00:39:24,109 --> 00:39:20,910
condoms and the circumcised group used

1022
00:39:26,569 --> 00:39:24,119
condoms at a higher rate so right there

1023
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:26,579
do the studies show that circumcision

1024
00:39:31,039 --> 00:39:28,650
has an effect on HIV or that a group

1025
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:31,049
that uses condoms at a higher rate gets

1026
00:39:36,829 --> 00:39:34,650
HIV at a lower rate I mean and this the

1027
00:39:38,150 --> 00:39:36,839
people involved were paid you can go you

1028
00:39:40,519 --> 00:39:38,160
know down the list of different

1029
00:39:41,959 --> 00:39:40,529
challenges with these studies and then

1030
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:41,969
there's a null to another conversation

1031
00:39:47,329 --> 00:39:43,650
to have about the amount of money that

1032
00:39:50,539 --> 00:39:47,339
went through them so 40 million dollars

1033
00:39:53,809 --> 00:39:50,549
from PEPFAR from you the taxpayer went

1034
00:39:56,359 --> 00:39:53,819
to circumcision campaigns in Africa to

1035
00:39:58,099 --> 00:39:56,369
stop the spread of HIV and there's been

1036
00:39:59,870 --> 00:39:58,109
significant money contributed from the

1037
00:40:01,759 --> 00:39:59,880
Gates Foundation and from the Clinton

1038
00:40:04,699 --> 00:40:01,769
Foundation from all these big groups

1039
00:40:06,949 --> 00:40:04,709
that ought to be able to know that the

1040
00:40:09,859 --> 00:40:06,959
data involved does not really justify

1041
00:40:11,689 --> 00:40:09,869
this and a lot of people have suggested

1042
00:40:14,380 --> 00:40:11,699
that there might be something strange

1043
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:14,390
going on there but again you know

1044
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:16,650
there's not a lot that comes out of

1045
00:40:21,919 --> 00:40:19,410
these circumcision campaigns in Africa

1046
00:40:23,839 --> 00:40:21,929
that isn't from the people that are

1047
00:40:26,660 --> 00:40:23,849
doing them and it would require further

1048
00:40:29,870 --> 00:40:26,670
investigation to really understand why

1049
00:40:31,429 --> 00:40:29,880
all this money is going to that but what

1050
00:40:33,650 --> 00:40:31,439
we do cover in the documentary is

1051
00:40:37,699 --> 00:40:33,660
whether or not those studies are true

1052
00:40:40,429 --> 00:40:37,709
and applicable to America and I think if

1053
00:40:42,919 --> 00:40:40,439
you go through the data it doesn't make

1054
00:40:45,199 --> 00:40:42,929
a lot of sense to even apply those to an

1055
00:40:46,279 --> 00:40:45,209
American setting where I just don't

1056
00:40:47,660 --> 00:40:46,289
think that most people when they're

1057
00:40:52,039 --> 00:40:47,670
making decisions for their children's

1058
00:40:54,169 --> 00:40:52,049
health are really worried about HIV so

1059
00:40:56,179 --> 00:40:54,179
much that they're going to hold their

1060
00:40:58,160 --> 00:40:56,189
child down and rip part of their body

1061
00:41:00,949 --> 00:40:58,170
off as they scream in pain like it does

1062
00:41:03,709 --> 00:41:00,959
not make sense under scrutiny I agree

1063
00:41:05,509 --> 00:41:03,719
and interestingly enough before I ever

1064
00:41:06,980 --> 00:41:05,519
heard of this documentary I wasn't a

1065
00:41:09,620 --> 00:41:06,990
conversation with some

1066
00:41:11,390 --> 00:41:09,630
friends and one of them disclosed me

1067
00:41:14,240 --> 00:41:11,400
that they had to have an adult

1068
00:41:16,790 --> 00:41:14,250
circumcision for medical reasons I

1069
00:41:20,510 --> 00:41:16,800
didn't pry too much but they did say

1070
00:41:23,450 --> 00:41:20,520
that it is night and day different the

1071
00:41:25,430 --> 00:41:23,460
sexual experience and the feeling and I

1072
00:41:28,010 --> 00:41:25,440
thought it was just very unique to get

1073
00:41:30,410 --> 00:41:28,020
that insight from a person who would

1074
00:41:32,810 --> 00:41:30,420
have have that procedure at adulthood so

1075
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:32,820
they actually could compare and it stuck

1076
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:34,650
out to me and then this documentary

1077
00:41:39,109 --> 00:41:36,890
confirmed a lot of what he was saying

1078
00:41:41,900 --> 00:41:39,119
man when I'm listening to it I just

1079
00:41:44,359 --> 00:41:41,910
can't get over the the question of who

1080
00:41:46,970 --> 00:41:44,369
cares like what kind of person or

1081
00:41:48,980 --> 00:41:46,980
organization is passionate about making

1082
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:48,990
sure this happens like you mentioned you

1083
00:41:53,510 --> 00:41:51,210
have these clips of politicians like

1084
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:53,520
Hillary Clinton announcing millions of

1085
00:41:57,650 --> 00:41:55,650
dollars dedicated to circumcising

1086
00:42:00,050 --> 00:41:57,660
Africans and everybody just stands up

1087
00:42:02,090 --> 00:42:00,060
and applauds and it's like why do you

1088
00:42:04,490 --> 00:42:02,100
care how about getting them running

1089
00:42:07,359 --> 00:42:04,500
water or something like that I mean it's

1090
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:07,369
just an odd thing to be preoccupied with

1091
00:42:11,850 --> 00:42:10,140
unless there's some kind of other agenda

1092
00:42:14,670 --> 00:42:11,860
I'm not aware of

1093
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:14,680
so I've heard two theories on why

1094
00:42:21,540 --> 00:42:18,970
organizations are pushing circumcision

1095
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:21,550
as a practice the first and probably

1096
00:42:28,890 --> 00:42:25,690
most likely is medical liability so the

1097
00:42:30,630 --> 00:42:28,900
organizations involved have practice

1098
00:42:33,330 --> 00:42:30,640
circumcision as a medical practice for a

1099
00:42:35,340 --> 00:42:33,340
long time in particular the American

1100
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:35,350
Academy of Pediatrics which is you know

1101
00:42:40,770 --> 00:42:36,910
one of the largest pediatric trade

1102
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:40,780
organizations in the country and if they

1103
00:42:45,900 --> 00:42:42,820
were to say that this practice they've

1104
00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:45,910
been doing a long time is actually

1105
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:49,570
harmful is not necessary then they would

1106
00:42:53,940 --> 00:42:51,310
open themselves up to lawsuit and

1107
00:42:56,220 --> 00:42:53,950
malpractice insurance is one of the

1108
00:42:58,320 --> 00:42:56,230
biggest expenses for any doctor and any

1109
00:42:59,850 --> 00:42:58,330
doctor's organization and if they were

1110
00:43:02,700 --> 00:42:59,860
to say that there's a possibility that

1111
00:43:05,690 --> 00:43:02,710
every circumcised man in America would

1112
00:43:08,030 --> 00:43:05,700
have a potential lawsuit against them

1113
00:43:10,650 --> 00:43:08,040
which is a lot of money so it would

1114
00:43:14,850 --> 00:43:10,660
financially destroy them

1115
00:43:17,550 --> 00:43:14,860
and so the theory is that their legal

1116
00:43:19,590 --> 00:43:17,560
team has said you absolutely can never

1117
00:43:21,330 --> 00:43:19,600
condemn circumcision you can say well

1118
00:43:22,770 --> 00:43:21,340
maybe there's some benefits and there's

1119
00:43:24,810 --> 00:43:22,780
some risks but we leave it up to the

1120
00:43:28,020 --> 00:43:24,820
parents to decide but you can't say it's

1121
00:43:31,710 --> 00:43:28,030
wrong so that's one theory and then the

1122
00:43:35,930 --> 00:43:31,720
other is that if circumcision were to be

1123
00:43:37,770 --> 00:43:35,940
challenged on moral and ethical grounds

1124
00:43:39,090 --> 00:43:37,780
medical circumcision were to be

1125
00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:39,100
challenged that it would also threaten

1126
00:43:44,940 --> 00:43:43,240
religious circumcision and if you say

1127
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:44,950
well you don't have the right to cut off

1128
00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:46,330
part of a child's body without his

1129
00:43:51,090 --> 00:43:49,030
consent in a medical setting then that

1130
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:51,100
might also apply to a religious setting

1131
00:43:54,330 --> 00:43:52,330
because people have religious freedom

1132
00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:54,340
you know if you're a Christian you can't

1133
00:43:58,650 --> 00:43:57,040
tattoo a cross on your child you can't

1134
00:44:01,290 --> 00:43:58,660
practice female circumcision on your

1135
00:44:03,290 --> 00:44:01,300
daughter if that's your religion why

1136
00:44:06,090 --> 00:44:03,300
would you be allowed to do something as

1137
00:44:08,970 --> 00:44:06,100
invasive or more invasive to your male

1138
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:08,980
child so there is also a theory that

1139
00:44:14,460 --> 00:44:12,430
there are Jewish interest groups who

1140
00:44:18,030 --> 00:44:14,470
really do not want to see this practice

1141
00:44:20,390 --> 00:44:18,040
compromised and might not even want to

1142
00:44:23,070 --> 00:44:20,400
be singled out in that way because

1143
00:44:25,740 --> 00:44:23,080
circumcision is designed as a mark in

1144
00:44:28,710 --> 00:44:25,750
Jewish culture to identify Jewish people

1145
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:28,720
as different in some way and there is a

1146
00:44:34,290 --> 00:44:32,170
fear among some Jewish people of being

1147
00:44:37,790 --> 00:44:34,300
seen as different or singled out or

1148
00:44:40,380 --> 00:44:37,800
targeted or persecuted and so if

1149
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:40,390
everyone is circumcised they don't stand

1150
00:44:44,340 --> 00:44:42,310
out in that way but they're not gonna

1151
00:44:45,930 --> 00:44:44,350
give up their practice which they've you

1152
00:44:48,930 --> 00:44:45,940
know identified with which they see as a

1153
00:44:51,870 --> 00:44:48,940
religious right so the two theories that

1154
00:44:54,810 --> 00:44:51,880
I've heard that our most plausible are

1155
00:44:56,460 --> 00:44:54,820
that groups that are doing circumcision

1156
00:44:57,810 --> 00:44:56,470
don't want to give up the money involved

1157
00:45:00,900 --> 00:44:57,820
and don't want to get sued out of

1158
00:45:02,070 --> 00:45:00,910
business and religious groups don't want

1159
00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:02,080
to give up what they see as their

1160
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:04,900
religious right and also don't want

1161
00:45:09,870 --> 00:45:06,850
their practice to be seen as different

1162
00:45:11,940 --> 00:45:09,880
or wrong in some way I think you're

1163
00:45:15,090 --> 00:45:11,950
definitely on to something with the

1164
00:45:16,650 --> 00:45:15,100
malpractice issue because you follow the

1165
00:45:19,230 --> 00:45:16,660
money on most things and that's where

1166
00:45:20,940 --> 00:45:19,240
you're gonna find the motivations and a

1167
00:45:23,550 --> 00:45:20,950
part of me does think of it as like

1168
00:45:26,330 --> 00:45:23,560
something we take for granted as just an

1169
00:45:29,670 --> 00:45:26,340
outpatient procedure for babies like

1170
00:45:31,770 --> 00:45:29,680
recommended tire rotation with your oil

1171
00:45:34,650 --> 00:45:31,780
change it's just another line item on

1172
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:34,660
this massive bill given to new parents

1173
00:45:38,490 --> 00:45:36,970
and on both sides of it you don't want

1174
00:45:40,350 --> 00:45:38,500
to get sued to lose the money and you

1175
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:40,360
don't want to forego the money you're

1176
00:45:43,860 --> 00:45:41,910
gaining from this extra unnecessary

1177
00:45:46,530 --> 00:45:43,870
practice I mean I definitely think

1178
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:46,540
that's probably a good majority of why

1179
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:50,050
this happens yet there's also a third

1180
00:45:54,930 --> 00:45:52,930
possibility I've heard which is there's

1181
00:45:58,950 --> 00:45:54,940
a lot of money made in the commercial

1182
00:46:02,430 --> 00:45:58,960
sale of foreskins so if you circumcised

1183
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:02,440
a child and you save the foreskin that

1184
00:46:06,660 --> 00:46:04,570
has tissue that can be used commercially

1185
00:46:09,060 --> 00:46:06,670
including in stem cells because a child

1186
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:09,070
that young still has some stem cell

1187
00:46:14,940 --> 00:46:11,770
tissue in them and there's a new story

1188
00:46:16,950 --> 00:46:14,950
that came out recently about beauty

1189
00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:16,960
products that use infant foreskin in

1190
00:46:20,670 --> 00:46:18,910
them yeah that rich celebrities are

1191
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:20,680
using people like Sandra Bullock and

1192
00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:23,290
Kate Beckinsale Oprah has even sold

1193
00:46:27,150 --> 00:46:25,180
these products on her show and I've

1194
00:46:29,700 --> 00:46:27,160
heard that the money made in the

1195
00:46:32,099 --> 00:46:29,710
commercial sale of foreskins is

1196
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:32,109
really hi I've wanted to find someone

1197
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:33,910
who will speak about that on camera but

1198
00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:36,490
they're understandably shy about that

1199
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:38,680
well there's one person I was talking to

1200
00:46:42,030 --> 00:46:40,330
I said you know I would make him

1201
00:46:43,410 --> 00:46:42,040
anonymous I changed his voice I'd

1202
00:46:45,540 --> 00:46:43,420
backlight him so that you couldn't see

1203
00:46:48,570 --> 00:46:45,550
who he was absolutely not he was not

1204
00:46:50,190 --> 00:46:48,580
about to talk about that on camera but I

1205
00:46:52,829 --> 00:46:50,200
have heard that the money involved in

1206
00:46:54,329 --> 00:46:52,839
that is very significant I don't doubt

1207
00:46:56,220 --> 00:46:54,339
it yeah you're right I've seen those

1208
00:46:58,740 --> 00:46:56,230
same clips of those celebrities

1209
00:47:01,109 --> 00:46:58,750
endorsing that kind of stuff in beauty

1210
00:47:03,599 --> 00:47:01,119
products but let's also give some time

1211
00:47:05,099 --> 00:47:03,609
to the resistance movement and what's

1212
00:47:07,410 --> 00:47:05,109
going on there talk to us a little bit

1213
00:47:09,810 --> 00:47:07,420
about inte activism which i think is a

1214
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:09,820
clever wordplay and this movement that's

1215
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:11,650
pushing back how large are they how

1216
00:47:16,349 --> 00:47:14,530
effective have they been so the int

1217
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:16,359
activist movement is a movement that

1218
00:47:20,790 --> 00:47:18,400
believes all human beings have the right

1219
00:47:22,050 --> 00:47:20,800
to their own body and to cut off a part

1220
00:47:24,030 --> 00:47:22,060
of someone's body without their consent

1221
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:24,040
is a violation of their basic human

1222
00:47:29,070 --> 00:47:26,530
rights and obviously the word is a play

1223
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:29,080
on the word intact an activist activists

1224
00:47:32,670 --> 00:47:31,119
for the intact body I've also heard them

1225
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:32,680
referred to as the genital autonomy

1226
00:47:36,780 --> 00:47:35,290
movement the idea that you have autonomy

1227
00:47:39,599 --> 00:47:36,790
over your own body including your

1228
00:47:41,099 --> 00:47:39,609
genitals and they oppose male

1229
00:47:43,109 --> 00:47:41,109
circumcision they oppose female

1230
00:47:45,450 --> 00:47:43,119
circumcision and they oppose intersex

1231
00:47:47,700 --> 00:47:45,460
genital cutting which is a whole nother

1232
00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:47,710
topic that we could get into at some

1233
00:47:52,550 --> 00:47:49,089
point but for the sake of this I'll

1234
00:47:56,460 --> 00:47:52,560
focus on male circumcision they have

1235
00:47:58,230 --> 00:47:56,470
done a lot with very little so if you

1236
00:48:01,410 --> 00:47:58,240
look at the movement when they began

1237
00:48:04,650 --> 00:48:01,420
there was a number of doctors and nurses

1238
00:48:06,810 --> 00:48:04,660
who had objections to the practice who

1239
00:48:09,270 --> 00:48:06,820
had seen it done and if you think about

1240
00:48:10,740 --> 00:48:09,280
it it's only been recently that we've

1241
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:10,750
been able to even get images of it

1242
00:48:14,430 --> 00:48:12,880
usually the child is sent away and most

1243
00:48:18,150 --> 00:48:14,440
people don't see what happens to their

1244
00:48:19,740 --> 00:48:18,160
child when this procedure is done

1245
00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:19,750
so a lot of the early people who are

1246
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:21,549
involved were former nurses and doctors

1247
00:48:24,930 --> 00:48:23,170
who had seen the procedure and thought

1248
00:48:29,370 --> 00:48:24,940
this is wrong we should not be doing

1249
00:48:31,410 --> 00:48:29,380
this there were a lot of parents and men

1250
00:48:32,999 --> 00:48:31,420
especially a lot of Gaiman who'd had the

1251
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:33,009
comparative experience and could seen

1252
00:48:36,690 --> 00:48:34,960
both bodies and thought wait like why

1253
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:36,700
does my partner have this weird scar

1254
00:48:41,099 --> 00:48:39,490
here why does this person I know have a

1255
00:48:44,670 --> 00:48:41,109
botch of some kind that doesn't make

1256
00:48:46,289 --> 00:48:44,680
sense and they just basically took every

1257
00:48:48,690 --> 00:48:46,299
opportunity they could to talk about

1258
00:48:51,029 --> 00:48:48,700
this and speak in public about it they

1259
00:48:53,039 --> 00:48:51,039
also published academic literature they

1260
00:48:54,690 --> 00:48:53,049
made media you know everything that you

1261
00:48:56,460 --> 00:48:54,700
would expect an activist movement to do

1262
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:56,470
and I think the thing that a lot of

1263
00:49:00,450 --> 00:48:57,970
people don't understand about activism

1264
00:49:05,130 --> 00:49:00,460
is that it takes time to change culture

1265
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:05,140
it has been a slow process over thirty

1266
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:08,559
or four years but now we've gone from a

1267
00:49:15,299 --> 00:49:11,890
circumcision rate that was above 90

1268
00:49:18,390 --> 00:49:15,309
percent to one that is around 50% and

1269
00:49:20,220 --> 00:49:18,400
maybe even lower and again these

1270
00:49:23,009 --> 00:49:20,230
organizations don't have a lot of money

1271
00:49:24,210 --> 00:49:23,019
they have what you and I have

1272
00:49:26,759 --> 00:49:24,220
essentially they have the ability to

1273
00:49:28,559 --> 00:49:26,769
talk and to share their message I think

1274
00:49:31,140 --> 00:49:28,569
that things like this things like social

1275
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:31,150
media things like the ability that we

1276
00:49:34,829 --> 00:49:32,890
have now to create our own media have

1277
00:49:37,140 --> 00:49:34,839
been incredibly useful for them because

1278
00:49:38,970 --> 00:49:37,150
before the only time that they were able

1279
00:49:41,339 --> 00:49:38,980
to get through on this issue was through

1280
00:49:43,470 --> 00:49:41,349
traditional media which often was

1281
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:43,480
reluctant to talk about something this

1282
00:49:48,059 --> 00:49:45,490
controversial and I think they've also

1283
00:49:51,420 --> 00:49:48,069
benefited from other movements that have

1284
00:49:55,049 --> 00:49:51,430
made it more okay to talk publicly about

1285
00:49:56,249 --> 00:49:55,059
sexuality and to you know accept the

1286
00:49:57,870 --> 00:49:56,259
idea that you have the right to your own

1287
00:50:00,240 --> 00:49:57,880
body I mean there's a lot of other

1288
00:50:02,099 --> 00:50:00,250
movements that have pushed something

1289
00:50:05,490 --> 00:50:02,109
similar to that idea that they've

1290
00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:05,500
benefited from now that we are a much

1291
00:50:10,890 --> 00:50:08,470
more sexually open society that we have

1292
00:50:13,589 --> 00:50:10,900
the means of communication to share this

1293
00:50:16,380 --> 00:50:13,599
message to a wider audience I think that

1294
00:50:18,720 --> 00:50:16,390
they are on the cusp of breaking through

1295
00:50:21,539 --> 00:50:18,730
into the mainstream and again if you

1296
00:50:23,789 --> 00:50:21,549
look at activist movements cultural

1297
00:50:27,359 --> 00:50:23,799
change happens very slowly and then all

1298
00:50:30,029 --> 00:50:27,369
at once it's not like there was a point

1299
00:50:31,589 --> 00:50:30,039
that you could point to where you know

1300
00:50:31,830 --> 00:50:31,599
things like the civil rights movement or

1301
00:50:39,270 --> 00:50:31,840
the

1302
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:39,280
got to it was a slow burn and that

1303
00:50:43,350 --> 00:50:42,010
suddenly had a moment in culture where

1304
00:50:45,390 --> 00:50:43,360
it was the thing that everyone was

1305
00:50:47,130 --> 00:50:45,400
talking about and I think that that

1306
00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:47,140
moment is coming with this issue and

1307
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:49,570
it's coming very soon right like we

1308
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:52,000
might be near that tipping point now the

1309
00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:53,530
film has been out for a couple of months

1310
00:50:59,400 --> 00:50:56,770
how would you compare the reactions

1311
00:51:01,290 --> 00:50:59,410
you've gotten to maybe your expectations

1312
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:01,300
that you had in your mind you know I

1313
00:51:04,920 --> 00:51:03,130
wasn't sure what sort of reaction this

1314
00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:04,930
would get and I think what we've had is

1315
00:51:10,710 --> 00:51:08,830
a slow build where the more people who

1316
00:51:13,170 --> 00:51:10,720
see the film the more people recommend

1317
00:51:15,480 --> 00:51:13,180
it and what's interesting is I sort of

1318
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:15,490
thought most films they come out they

1319
00:51:19,530 --> 00:51:16,930
make a splash and then they kind of

1320
00:51:23,910 --> 00:51:19,540
disappear and this film has sort of

1321
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:23,920
steadily reached people and we've been

1322
00:51:28,170 --> 00:51:26,800
expanding our audience bit by bit so in

1323
00:51:30,930 --> 00:51:28,180
some way I think that's better instead

1324
00:51:33,270 --> 00:51:30,940
instead of one hit and then it's gone

1325
00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:33,280
from the culture it's becoming a thing

1326
00:51:37,230 --> 00:51:35,890
that people recommend to friends who are

1327
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:37,240
having kids or people who want to

1328
00:51:40,770 --> 00:51:39,310
understand this issue and that's kind of

1329
00:51:43,170 --> 00:51:40,780
what I wanted it to be I want it to be

1330
00:51:44,430 --> 00:51:43,180
something that 10 years later is still

1331
00:51:47,190 --> 00:51:44,440
relevant for people who want to

1332
00:51:48,590 --> 00:51:47,200
understand this issue so my hope is that

1333
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:48,600
it's only going to continue to grow

1334
00:51:54,720 --> 00:51:51,370
mm-hmm I'm also curious has there been

1335
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:54,730
any response from the critics or the

1336
00:52:01,640 --> 00:51:58,050
American Academy of Pediatrics

1337
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:01,650
so we've had a couple people respond in

1338
00:52:05,940 --> 00:52:03,970
interesting ways

1339
00:52:07,530 --> 00:52:05,950
I kind of like different reactions to

1340
00:52:09,270 --> 00:52:07,540
the film I've gotten a couple hater

1341
00:52:12,089 --> 00:52:09,280
reviews and they're really entertaining

1342
00:52:14,490 --> 00:52:12,099
to me you know I feel like if someone is

1343
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:14,500
triggered enough to write a really crazy

1344
00:52:19,020 --> 00:52:17,410
insane review that the film affected

1345
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:19,030
them in some way and that's interesting

1346
00:52:25,010 --> 00:52:20,770
to me and there's a few of those out

1347
00:52:29,690 --> 00:52:25,020
there I actually had yet a screening at

1348
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:29,700
Oxford town hall recently and I got a

1349
00:52:33,570 --> 00:52:32,290
request from a reporter for comment that

1350
00:52:37,859 --> 00:52:33,580
there were people who are gonna protest

1351
00:52:39,510 --> 00:52:37,869
the film and basically say that it was

1352
00:52:42,750 --> 00:52:39,520
anti-semitic because it was criticizing

1353
00:52:45,359 --> 00:52:42,760
circumcision and I replied that we

1354
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:45,369
interviewed Jewish men on both sides in

1355
00:52:48,780 --> 00:52:47,440
the film and that these Jewish men say

1356
00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:48,790
they feel really harmed by the practice

1357
00:52:52,500 --> 00:52:50,890
and that anyone protesting our film

1358
00:52:54,330 --> 00:52:52,510
should be seen as an anti human rights

1359
00:52:57,390 --> 00:52:54,340
activist trying to silence Jewish men

1360
00:52:59,849 --> 00:52:57,400
and so that article ran and then no one

1361
00:53:03,450 --> 00:52:59,859
showed up to protest the film so I think

1362
00:53:06,690 --> 00:53:03,460
my quote was a little too effective but

1363
00:53:07,950 --> 00:53:06,700
the AAP is aware of the film and it's

1364
00:53:10,829 --> 00:53:07,960
funny because they haven't said anything

1365
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:10,839
about it publicly their National

1366
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:14,770
Convention was a couple months ago or I

1367
00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:17,050
think it was late October early November

1368
00:53:22,530 --> 00:53:20,980
and I tried to place an ad for the film

1369
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:22,540
there for their conference you know you

1370
00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:24,130
go to a conference you get a bag and it

1371
00:53:28,620 --> 00:53:26,980
has all sorts of free giveaways in it

1372
00:53:30,540 --> 00:53:28,630
and then sometimes there's ads in the

1373
00:53:34,589 --> 00:53:30,550
back there's an info card for different

1374
00:53:36,510 --> 00:53:34,599
groups right so for $5,500 you could get

1375
00:53:39,450 --> 00:53:36,520
an info card and everyone's bag for one

1376
00:53:42,540 --> 00:53:39,460
day and for $10,000 you get a card in

1377
00:53:45,150 --> 00:53:42,550
everyone's bag for two days so I made an

1378
00:53:46,890 --> 00:53:45,160
info card that said a film featuring

1379
00:53:48,780 --> 00:53:46,900
multiple members of the American Academy

1380
00:53:52,099 --> 00:53:48,790
of Pediatrics and then had our poster

1381
00:53:56,730 --> 00:53:52,109
and I tried to place it as an ad and

1382
00:53:58,170 --> 00:53:56,740
they said no absolutely not and didn't

1383
00:54:00,300 --> 00:53:58,180
give me a reason beyond that so I

1384
00:54:01,950 --> 00:54:00,310
literally could not pay the organization

1385
00:54:06,320 --> 00:54:01,960
thousands of dollars to talk about my

1386
00:54:10,109 --> 00:54:06,330
film but they are aware of it and when I

1387
00:54:12,030 --> 00:54:10,119
visited the conference there were people

1388
00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:12,040
there who were very high up in the

1389
00:54:17,460 --> 00:54:14,980
organization who recognized me on site

1390
00:54:20,670 --> 00:54:17,470
so I made eye contact with one of

1391
00:54:22,770 --> 00:54:20,680
members of the American Academy of

1392
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:22,780
Pediatrics Task Force on circumcision

1393
00:54:26,820 --> 00:54:25,450
and like his eyes went wide the moment

1394
00:54:29,490 --> 00:54:26,830
he saw me which means they're paying

1395
00:54:31,950 --> 00:54:29,500
enough attention to it that they're able

1396
00:54:34,380 --> 00:54:31,960
to recognize me just from my face let me

1397
00:54:36,180 --> 00:54:34,390
say anything or anything like that and I

1398
00:54:40,230 --> 00:54:36,190
think they feel really threatened by it

1399
00:54:43,890 --> 00:54:40,240
but they're also aware that engaging

1400
00:54:45,720 --> 00:54:43,900
publicly on this issue is a challenge

1401
00:54:47,280 --> 00:54:45,730
for them and so I'm a hundred percent

1402
00:54:49,500 --> 00:54:47,290
certain they've had meetings about the

1403
00:54:52,080 --> 00:54:49,510
film but they're right now keeping

1404
00:54:53,430 --> 00:54:52,090
publicly silent on it well that's got to

1405
00:54:55,440 --> 00:54:53,440
make you feel good a little bit they've

1406
00:54:58,620 --> 00:54:55,450
kind of identified the troublemaker and

1407
00:55:00,839 --> 00:54:58,630
I think you've got all the arguments on

1408
00:55:03,780 --> 00:55:00,849
your side you know there's a part of me

1409
00:55:04,980 --> 00:55:03,790
that likes being a dangerous artist and

1410
00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:04,990
there's another part of me that's like

1411
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:07,210
I'm just a guy talking about the facts

1412
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:09,760
and what's there and there's way in

1413
00:55:13,710 --> 00:55:11,050
which I don't see myself as very

1414
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:13,720
threatening and I also feel like I'm

1415
00:55:19,440 --> 00:55:16,090
willing to work with them I think that

1416
00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:19,450
their concerns around legal liability or

1417
00:55:24,089 --> 00:55:22,089
preserving the face of their

1418
00:55:25,349 --> 00:55:24,099
organization are legitimate and I'm

1419
00:55:27,570 --> 00:55:25,359
willing to have a conversation about

1420
00:55:30,020 --> 00:55:27,580
this and I'm going to find a solution

1421
00:55:32,820 --> 00:55:30,030
where these activists are heard and

1422
00:55:35,460 --> 00:55:32,830
their concerns are addressed and the

1423
00:55:37,109 --> 00:55:35,470
organization is able to get what it

1424
00:55:39,990 --> 00:55:37,119
needs but they're not interested in

1425
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:40,000
having the conversation I think they see

1426
00:55:46,109 --> 00:55:41,650
this whole thing as annoying and would

1427
00:55:48,750 --> 00:55:46,119
rather throw money at the problem or or

1428
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:48,760
try to avoid it as much as possible or

1429
00:55:54,570 --> 00:55:50,770
personally attack the people involved

1430
00:55:57,150 --> 00:55:54,580
which is unfortunate man boy it seems

1431
00:56:00,150 --> 00:55:57,160
really tough to try to navigate those

1432
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:00,160
waters and try to correct this tradition

1433
00:56:07,050 --> 00:56:04,450
and also not have them admit to causing

1434
00:56:09,280 --> 00:56:07,060
harm that seems very delicate and a hard

1435
00:56:12,190 --> 00:56:09,290
tightrope to walk

1436
00:56:14,170 --> 00:56:12,200
it is but I think it's possible and

1437
00:56:16,270 --> 00:56:14,180
again like part of the challenge is that

1438
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:16,280
they don't talk publicly about these

1439
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:18,650
concerns because then they would have to

1440
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:20,210
admit that there's financial reasons

1441
00:56:23,710 --> 00:56:21,650
they'd want to continue the practice or

1442
00:56:26,740 --> 00:56:23,720
legal liability reasons they can't talk

1443
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:26,750
about why it's bad so even having the

1444
00:56:30,670 --> 00:56:28,640
conversation or admitting the interest

1445
00:56:34,150 --> 00:56:30,680
they have is not something they want to

1446
00:56:35,470 --> 00:56:34,160
do all right on man and so as we're kind

1447
00:56:38,380 --> 00:56:35,480
of getting to the end of the road here

1448
00:56:40,060 --> 00:56:38,390
the film ends with a dedication and I

1449
00:56:43,660 --> 00:56:40,070
was kind of curious what is the story

1450
00:56:46,570 --> 00:56:43,670
behind that dedication so at the end we

1451
00:56:48,130 --> 00:56:46,580
we have a dedication to Jonathan Conte

1452
00:56:51,730 --> 00:56:48,140
is one of the people who appears in the

1453
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:51,740
film Jonathan was a member of Bay Area

1454
00:56:56,530 --> 00:56:53,810
int activist and attacked this group in

1455
00:56:59,320 --> 00:56:56,540
San Francisco and for a lot of people he

1456
00:57:03,700 --> 00:56:59,330
was a public face of the movement he was

1457
00:57:05,740 --> 00:57:03,710
a very well-spoken young man who had a

1458
00:57:09,220 --> 00:57:05,750
lot of grief over his circumcision and

1459
00:57:12,420 --> 00:57:09,230
spoke very eloquently about it and about

1460
00:57:14,370 --> 00:57:12,430
two years ago ended his own life

1461
00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:14,380
and it was a very clear deliberate

1462
00:57:19,559 --> 00:57:15,760
choice the way that he did it it was

1463
00:57:21,180 --> 00:57:19,569
something he had planned and he had a

1464
00:57:23,250 --> 00:57:21,190
lot of grief over this issue he felt

1465
00:57:26,099 --> 00:57:23,260
like that it was wrong that he was

1466
00:57:28,890 --> 00:57:26,109
harmed and that there was no way of

1467
00:57:32,190 --> 00:57:28,900
changing things and I think if there is

1468
00:57:34,799 --> 00:57:32,200
a recipe for suicide its feeling intense

1469
00:57:36,779 --> 00:57:34,809
sadness and grief and feeling like

1470
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:36,789
you're alone in it and that no one in

1471
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:38,770
the larger world is willing to listen to

1472
00:57:43,950 --> 00:57:40,930
you and feeling like it will never

1473
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:43,960
change and so

1474
00:57:48,300 --> 00:57:46,570
he was someone who meant a lot to people

1475
00:57:51,990 --> 00:57:48,310
involved on this issue he was someone I

1476
00:57:55,170 --> 00:57:52,000
interviewed in the film and I felt like

1477
00:57:57,770 --> 00:57:55,180
it would be meaningful to honor him by

1478
00:58:01,170 --> 00:57:57,780
putting that dedication at the end I

1479
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:01,180
agree it is very sad and it is nice that

1480
00:58:06,900 --> 00:58:03,970
she did that well man we pretty much

1481
00:58:09,060 --> 00:58:06,910
covered it I really thank you for making

1482
00:58:10,620 --> 00:58:09,070
the film I certainly learned a lot and I

1483
00:58:12,780 --> 00:58:10,630
think the people who listened today did

1484
00:58:15,390 --> 00:58:12,790
as well please give them the info they

1485
00:58:17,190 --> 00:58:15,400
need to find and watch American

1486
00:58:18,870 --> 00:58:17,200
circumcision for themselves as well as

1487
00:58:20,339 --> 00:58:18,880
anything else you might be working on or

1488
00:58:21,700 --> 00:58:20,349
might want to tell them before we close

1489
00:58:24,190 --> 00:58:21,710
it out

1490
00:58:27,220 --> 00:58:24,200
so you can find the film on circumcision

1491
00:58:30,760 --> 00:58:27,230
movie calm it's available on Amazon and

1492
00:58:33,580 --> 00:58:30,770
iTunes and Vimeo we are at circa movie

1493
00:58:38,470 --> 00:58:33,590
on all social media you can find me at

1494
00:58:41,980 --> 00:58:38,480
Brendan Marauder calm and @bd Mirada be

1495
00:58:45,100 --> 00:58:41,990
DM aro TTA on all social media

1496
00:58:48,610 --> 00:58:45,110
I feel like this issue is something

1497
00:58:50,140 --> 00:58:48,620
that's gonna continue to grow and I have

1498
00:58:52,690 --> 00:58:50,150
some other film projects in the works

1499
00:58:55,120 --> 00:58:52,700
but I can't really talk about them yet

1500
00:58:57,370 --> 00:58:55,130
so you'll just have to follow me and see

1501
00:58:59,830 --> 00:58:57,380
for yourself right on

1502
00:59:02,380 --> 00:58:59,840
well again very informative super

1503
00:59:04,870 --> 00:59:02,390
important issue as odd and uncomfortable

1504
00:59:06,430 --> 00:59:04,880
as it might be for some big thanks to

1505
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:06,440
you again and keep up the great work

1506
00:59:12,790 --> 00:59:09,050
keep stirring pots thank you and thanks

1507
00:59:15,310 --> 00:59:12,800
for having me on you got it sweet Jesus

1508
00:59:19,060 --> 00:59:15,320
people give yourselves a hand you're

1509
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:19,070
still with me we did it a full THC

1510
00:59:25,690 --> 00:59:22,850
dedicated to dicks seriously though I

1511
00:59:27,910 --> 00:59:25,700
did learn quite a bit and I absolutely

1512
00:59:30,910 --> 00:59:27,920
think we should stop doing this rather

1513
00:59:34,780 --> 00:59:30,920
than just trying to downplay it after

1514
00:59:37,450 --> 00:59:34,790
the fact so I was really happy to do it

1515
00:59:40,900 --> 00:59:37,460
and try to maintain a professional

1516
00:59:45,070 --> 00:59:40,910
manner but it's also a little comical

1517
00:59:48,250 --> 00:59:45,080
that THC now has a dick show that's just

1518
00:59:50,950 --> 00:59:48,260
the reality of it and to be honest for

1519
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:50,960
several years I was one of those people

1520
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:55,250
of the mindset that yeah we probably

1521
00:59:59,920 --> 00:59:56,690
don't need to do it anymore

1522
01:00:03,520 --> 00:59:59,930
but I'll get my kids circumcised for the

1523
01:00:06,120 --> 01:00:03,530
cosmetic reason like he's being prepared

1524
01:00:08,650 --> 01:00:06,130
for some kind of dog show or something

1525
01:00:12,700 --> 01:00:08,660
but I think that's probably the most

1526
01:00:16,050 --> 01:00:12,710
common mindset out there and I hope now

1527
01:00:18,970 --> 01:00:16,060
people who were of that mindset are

1528
01:00:21,270 --> 01:00:18,980
reconsidering because when you get into

1529
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:21,280
the severity of it

1530
01:00:26,410 --> 01:00:23,690
Cosmetics just isn't a good enough

1531
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:26,420
reason anymore there's actually

1532
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:28,370
something that happened on this show way

1533
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:31,130
back in the day probably in the first

1534
01:00:35,410 --> 01:00:33,890
year even but I had a guest by the name

1535
01:00:38,099 --> 01:00:35,420
of Lenin honor

1536
01:00:40,839 --> 01:00:38,109
and he was speaking in reference to

1537
01:00:43,509 --> 01:00:40,849
circumcision and vaccines but he felt

1538
01:00:46,089 --> 01:00:43,519
deeply about the idea that it is a

1539
01:00:46,920 --> 01:00:46,099
father's duty to protect their kids from

1540
01:00:50,769 --> 01:00:46,930
harm

1541
01:00:54,910 --> 01:00:50,779
pretty simple premise but he took it to

1542
01:00:57,940 --> 01:00:54,920
a deep philosophical and spiritual level

1543
01:01:01,480 --> 01:00:57,950
and his passion was pretty convincing

1544
01:01:04,420 --> 01:01:01,490
and he saw both of those things vaccines

1545
01:01:07,299 --> 01:01:04,430
and circumcision as a violation of that

1546
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:07,309
protection and that's fair right because

1547
01:01:13,059 --> 01:01:09,490
you're giving your newborn over to

1548
01:01:15,339 --> 01:01:13,069
strangers who you don't know to perform

1549
01:01:19,329 --> 01:01:15,349
procedures you don't know much about on

1550
01:01:22,509 --> 01:01:19,339
blind faith and I'm sorry that's just

1551
01:01:23,769 --> 01:01:22,519
not good enough and I have agreed ever

1552
01:01:26,559 --> 01:01:23,779
since

1553
01:01:30,490 --> 01:01:26,569
especially on this issue a father should

1554
01:01:32,650 --> 01:01:30,500
step up and say no any parent really but

1555
01:01:34,930 --> 01:01:32,660
you know matters of the penis I think

1556
01:01:37,839 --> 01:01:34,940
it's okay to defer to dad at least on

1557
01:01:42,099 --> 01:01:37,849
this one and don't be afraid to buck the

1558
01:01:44,319 --> 01:01:42,109
trend as Brendon said the trends are

1559
01:01:46,539 --> 01:01:44,329
going the other way anyway so you might

1560
01:01:48,390 --> 01:01:46,549
do something so your kids not the odd

1561
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:48,400
man out and make them the odd man out

1562
01:01:51,579 --> 01:01:50,720
you want to have that conversation with

1563
01:01:54,519 --> 01:01:51,589
a 12 year old

1564
01:01:57,039 --> 01:01:54,529
I just thought your penis would look

1565
01:01:59,339 --> 01:01:57,049
better I don't want to have that

1566
01:02:02,109 --> 01:01:59,349
conversation I'll tell you that

1567
01:02:05,349 --> 01:02:02,119
Brendon definitely gave us plenty of

1568
01:02:07,839 --> 01:02:05,359
reasons to avoid it but it is really a

1569
01:02:11,559 --> 01:02:07,849
multi-layered issue the psychological

1570
01:02:15,099 --> 01:02:11,569
piece is no small thing this attitude

1571
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:15,109
that well I had one and I'm fine so

1572
01:02:20,950 --> 01:02:16,490
let's just keep doing it to everyone

1573
01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:20,960
else it's no good yeah to actually stop

1574
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:22,640
means maybe there is something wrong

1575
01:02:28,420 --> 01:02:24,890
with it and that might mean something

1576
01:02:32,470 --> 01:02:28,430
wrong was done to you or to your brother

1577
01:02:36,849 --> 01:02:32,480
or to your son or to me I guess I'm okay

1578
01:02:38,970 --> 01:02:36,859
saying that I was wronged but I don't

1579
01:02:42,670 --> 01:02:38,980
want guys out there to start thinking

1580
01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:42,680
yeah I am a victim and start tracing all

1581
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:46,160
their issues back to the big slice for

1582
01:02:51,800 --> 01:02:48,810
me I think my response is that

1583
01:02:55,250 --> 01:02:51,810
I'm probably not going to restore my

1584
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:55,260
foreskin but after I saw all the things

1585
01:03:00,920 --> 01:02:57,330
that can go wrong and we know the

1586
01:03:03,590 --> 01:03:00,930
medical system [\h__\h] up I see it as an

1587
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:03,600
unnecessary risk and a pointless

1588
01:03:11,330 --> 01:03:07,890
procedure and what I learned was that us

1589
01:03:13,940 --> 01:03:11,340
guys who were cut as kids we really are

1590
01:03:16,370 --> 01:03:13,950
ignorant of what we're missing we really

1591
01:03:20,750 --> 01:03:16,380
cannot speak from any kind of informed

1592
01:03:23,270 --> 01:03:20,760
position imagine instead of foreskins we

1593
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:23,280
had some arbitrary tradition of cutting

1594
01:03:28,820 --> 01:03:26,970
off pinky fingers now pinky fingers feel

1595
01:03:31,970 --> 01:03:28,830
like a big deal no doubt but you can

1596
01:03:35,690 --> 01:03:31,980
still hold a fork or a pen you can still

1597
01:03:39,230 --> 01:03:35,700
drive you can go through life feeling as

1598
01:03:40,820 --> 01:03:39,240
if you didn't really lose anything until

1599
01:03:42,710 --> 01:03:40,830
someone who still has their pinky

1600
01:03:45,650 --> 01:03:42,720
fingers comes around and says hey wait a

1601
01:03:48,050 --> 01:03:45,660
second having this extra finger it's

1602
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:48,060
actually really useful for my life and

1603
01:03:53,930 --> 01:03:50,640
when I look back if I didn't have it

1604
01:03:57,290 --> 01:03:53,940
that would have been a real shame maybe

1605
01:03:59,450 --> 01:03:57,300
listen to that person or imagine we put

1606
01:04:01,700 --> 01:03:59,460
drops in baby's eyes that make them go

1607
01:04:03,260 --> 01:04:01,710
colorblind yeah you could still get

1608
01:04:04,820 --> 01:04:03,270
through life but you'd never really know

1609
01:04:09,110 --> 01:04:04,830
the full extent of what you're missing

1610
01:04:11,690 --> 01:04:09,120
if most people had it done you never

1611
01:04:13,430 --> 01:04:11,700
knew color yourself and a doctor

1612
01:04:16,190 --> 01:04:13,440
recommended it a lot of people would

1613
01:04:19,010 --> 01:04:16,200
just do it and the full spectrum of what

1614
01:04:20,200 --> 01:04:19,020
a person would be losing would just be

1615
01:04:22,940 --> 01:04:20,210
an idea

1616
01:04:25,880 --> 01:04:22,950
I'm only saying you don't know about

1617
01:04:27,980 --> 01:04:25,890
what you don't have you don't know what

1618
01:04:29,540 --> 01:04:27,990
you're missing if everyone else around

1619
01:04:32,690 --> 01:04:29,550
you is also missing that that doesn't

1620
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:32,700
help and I didn't realize the foreskin

1621
01:04:39,110 --> 01:04:36,000
was more than just a skin sheath and I'm

1622
01:04:41,360 --> 01:04:39,120
pissed pissed might be a little strong

1623
01:04:43,640 --> 01:04:41,370
but I definitely am not happy about it

1624
01:04:45,260 --> 01:04:43,650
and anyone who's circumsized should

1625
01:04:47,090 --> 01:04:45,270
probably watch the documentary and

1626
01:04:49,190 --> 01:04:47,100
really look at those parts where they

1627
01:04:53,330 --> 01:04:49,200
described the differences and what it's

1628
01:04:55,370 --> 01:04:53,340
like to be natural I'm probably not

1629
01:04:58,160 --> 01:04:55,380
gonna lose sleep about it but it's

1630
01:05:00,350 --> 01:04:58,170
definitely interesting and for that

1631
01:05:03,140 --> 01:05:00,360
reason I consider this a pretty good

1632
01:05:04,730 --> 01:05:03,150
episode very off the radar topic who's

1633
01:05:08,900 --> 01:05:04,740
be talking about this kind of thing if

1634
01:05:11,630 --> 01:05:08,910
not THC right but all real glory goes to

1635
01:05:14,450 --> 01:05:11,640
the guest it is his film and it's a

1636
01:05:16,730 --> 01:05:14,460
documentary that's worth a watch even if

1637
01:05:18,770 --> 01:05:16,740
it doesn't change your mind exactly you

1638
01:05:20,930 --> 01:05:18,780
should not take the decision so lightly

1639
01:05:23,020 --> 01:05:20,940
that you can't dedicate 90 minutes in a

1640
01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:23,030
follow-up conversation with your partner

1641
01:05:29,030 --> 01:05:26,160
before pulling such a fragile trigger

1642
01:05:31,190 --> 01:05:29,040
and if you only heard the first free

1643
01:05:33,580 --> 01:05:31,200
hour today you probably think you heard

1644
01:05:36,530 --> 01:05:33,590
enough but that is not true folks

1645
01:05:39,170 --> 01:05:36,540
there's always more and I had a very

1646
01:05:41,690 --> 01:05:39,180
specific place in mind when splitting

1647
01:05:44,420 --> 01:05:41,700
this episode and crafting the pathway

1648
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:44,430
through the line of questioning and that

1649
01:05:52,160 --> 01:05:47,930
was just before the botched circumcision

1650
01:05:55,130 --> 01:05:52,170
conversation I reserve that for only the

1651
01:05:59,150 --> 01:05:55,140
hardcore Plus people because what I saw

1652
01:06:04,100 --> 01:05:59,160
in that documentary in the segment on

1653
01:06:07,030 --> 01:06:04,110
Boches [\h__\h] me up and even a 1% risk

1654
01:06:09,710 --> 01:06:07,040
of that is not worth doing it and just

1655
01:06:12,950 --> 01:06:09,720
to run through the other plus portion

1656
01:06:16,490 --> 01:06:12,960
topics we covered you will find a

1657
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:16,500
section on forced extraction we also

1658
01:06:23,060 --> 01:06:19,170
talked about the dr. Winslow approach to

1659
01:06:25,220 --> 01:06:23,070
circumcision how it affects and changes

1660
01:06:28,220 --> 01:06:25,230
sexual interactions that was quite

1661
01:06:30,770 --> 01:06:28,230
interesting and of course foreskin

1662
01:06:33,380 --> 01:06:30,780
restoration techniques and the results

1663
01:06:35,150 --> 01:06:33,390
as well as the political situation

1664
01:06:37,910 --> 01:06:35,160
there's a lot more there than you might

1665
01:06:40,250 --> 01:06:37,920
expect so like I said there are many

1666
01:06:41,650 --> 01:06:40,260
more layers to this than might appear

1667
01:06:44,900 --> 01:06:41,660
obvious at first

1668
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:44,910
kudos to Brendan for being so bold as to

1669
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:47,970
go there and so that's the show tell

1670
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:50,130
your friends we also have a joint

1671
01:06:56,030 --> 01:06:53,610
session on the 20th at 7 p.m. Pacific do

1672
01:06:58,430 --> 01:06:56,040
try to be there so you can tell me about

1673
01:07:02,330 --> 01:06:58,440
all your weird experiences and local

1674
01:07:04,610 --> 01:07:02,340
conspiracies and out-there theories free

1675
01:07:07,400 --> 01:07:04,620
for anyone to be a part of live and

1676
01:07:10,130 --> 01:07:07,410
always archived for plus people sign up

1677
01:07:12,620 --> 01:07:10,140
for Plus please if you appreciate what I

1678
01:07:14,630 --> 01:07:12,630
do it's really all I ask in the grand

1679
01:07:16,270 --> 01:07:14,640
scheme of things and if you're already

1680
01:07:19,390 --> 01:07:16,280
here I can pretty much get

1681
01:07:21,940 --> 01:07:19,400
that you'll like it as an added

1682
01:07:24,220 --> 01:07:21,950
occasional bonus I always do make guests

1683
01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:24,230
a free lifetime plus account and

1684
01:07:29,710 --> 01:07:26,570
sometimes they do show up to engage with

1685
01:07:32,470 --> 01:07:29,720
people in the Plus comments big thanks

1686
01:07:35,560 --> 01:07:32,480
to Robert Bonomo for doing that recently

1687
01:07:38,860 --> 01:07:35,570
if you liked his appearance and talk on

1688
01:07:41,770 --> 01:07:38,870
the Tarot do check out that plus comment

1689
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:41,780
section to find him and that pretty much

1690
01:07:45,460 --> 01:07:43,970
does it for me next week we're talking

1691
01:07:48,700 --> 01:07:45,470
to one of the greats

1692
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:48,710
a major horse and the THC stable given

1693
01:07:54,040 --> 01:07:50,650
us his end of the year assessment and

1694
01:07:56,380 --> 01:07:54,050
then we have a medical conspiracy themed

1695
01:07:58,900 --> 01:07:56,390
show aimed at the ladies to

1696
01:08:01,630 --> 01:07:58,910
counterbalance today's for the guys so

1697
01:08:02,950 --> 01:08:01,640
stay tuned or at least come back

1698
01:08:04,720 --> 01:08:02,960
I guess you're free to go do other

1699
01:08:06,280 --> 01:08:04,730
things in the meantime but until then

1700
01:08:14,380 --> 01:08:06,290
I've done my part

1701
01:08:16,450 --> 01:08:14,390
your move dick cutters your [\h__\h] you

1702
01:08:21,460 --> 01:08:16,460
see

1703
01:08:29,070 --> 01:08:21,470
no world isn't random it's attached to

1704
01:08:33,160 --> 01:08:29,080
pub or street control over everything a

1705
01:08:38,289 --> 01:08:33,170
95 is trying to steal yeah now don't

1706
01:08:44,140 --> 01:08:38,299
that job seem silly hello

1707
01:08:48,309 --> 01:08:44,150
here why should I play back recordings

1708
01:08:52,729 --> 01:08:48,319
from some spy agency wish we were

1709
01:09:02,630 --> 01:08:57,410
I'll be thankful when it's exposed the

1710
01:09:14,490 --> 01:09:02,640
vespa received is such a difference

1711
01:09:14,500 --> 01:10:05,280
[Music]

1712
01:10:17,940 --> 01:10:12,750
oh no they're cartoons it's so typical

1713
01:10:26,030 --> 01:10:17,950
of me to talk about that stuff I'm sorry

1714
01:10:30,240 --> 01:10:26,040
there's good and well did you ever hear

1715
01:10:35,910 --> 01:10:30,250
argument the nothing really happens it's

1716
01:10:42,210 --> 01:10:35,920
no secret stay

1717
01:11:39,360 --> 01:10:50,210
[Music]

1718
01:12:28,330 --> 01:11:39,370
[Applause]

1719
01:12:29,820 --> 01:12:28,340
[Music]